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BoganTW

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BoganTW last won the day on December 19 2012

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About BoganTW

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    Cafe Ronin

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  • First Name
    Anthony
  • Last Name
    Thorne
  • C4D Version
    After Effects / C4D Lite
  • Location
    Melbourne, Australia

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  1. The tour details (linked further up) actually look pretty good. Attendees pay $95. They get to attend whatever happens at the show with Andrew Kramer, the GSG guys and Chris Schmidt, EJ Hassenfratz, Noseman and probably other local artists, and then meet and chat with them all. They also get access to related tutorials and follow up webinars, and a 30 day license for Adobe Creative Cloud, and a three month bundled license for Redshift and C4D R21, plus other bits and pieces. I wouldn't be surprised if they win a good number of people over. https://www.3dmotiontour.com
  2. Blender lifting it’s game is probably good for the whole industry, so thoughtful comparisons between it and C4D like the ones you’re offering now are useful ICM, hopefully you can stick around and let us know how you go as you dig more deeply into it.
  3. The MAXON tour referred to earlier is probably this one, just announced. Looks good, I wish it would come Down Under. http://www.shootonline.com/spw/3d-design-motion-tour-hit-26-cities-worldwide
  4. Jops - yes, exactly. Myself and hopefully many others. Raischub, I know a guy who ran a local (small) production house. Short or medium term rentals also seemed to suit him as he seemed to change his focus every other year. Most recently hit outfit went from doing corporate video, to selling 3D printed models. He never would have been happy shelling out multiple K 's for Studio only to use it for a handful of months, but I expect will see the benefits of stopping and starting licensing as he sees fit.
  5. Who’s in ‘shock’ about Adobe again? I have a sub, as do most of the people I know socially, and the sun somehow still manages to rise each morning. I trust their output way more these days than I did a decade ago btw. The regular updates are also accompanied by regular communication, both from them and from online trainers. It frankly feels like more of a community, going somewhere together with a supporter that has your back. It wouldn’t surprise me if MAXON expand or improve on communications as well. I just remembered that Unity also has a subscription plan. For the many grads who are obsessed with making games, subs are the norm, and MAXON going this route will make total sense to them. I remain excited rather than apprehensive.
  6. @Raischub - My listing of approximately 22 guys, give or take a handful, is a snapshot of the number who feel so passionate about it that they've decided to jump onto two of the main C4D sites online and talk about it. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who don't like subscription, and also a decent number who do. But I'm not seeing a huge torrent off users flooding in screaming about it. Just a dozen or 15 or more posters writing how the new scheme makes them feel terrible. When I watched the McGavran opening keynote the livestream said there were around 1000 people watching. So the other 98% of people who have internet access but who haven't bothered to write anything on the two forums where MAXON folk chat and respond may well drop in later, I dunno. This quote / response bit I'm typing up here isn't meant to be snarky btw, just responding to some of your comments. Re this bit - If the cost of getting C4D Studio had dropped from $5000 down to around a grand here in Australia, does it just feel lower, or is it actually lower? I think $1000 feels lower than $5000 because it actually is lower, and feelings don't really come into it. Why do I have to remember this? I won't be purchasing a perpetual license. I'll be purchasing a subscription. My subscription will still let me own something, btw. It'll let me own the right to sit and use C4D R21 (and upwards) on my computer for as long as I want to subscribe to it. I'd be more bothered about your reminder that perpetual licenses can be put on the marketplace and resold if I was spending multiple thousands to buy the license in the first place. But I'm not. The baseball bat hit of $5000+ AU locally has gone away. Thank (expletive deleted) God. For a long while, I was learning off the demo. But do I think that some people use the software for a month or 3 for a project? Given that some projects occasionally take a month or 3 to complete, yes. If Yes Captain (Studio) in Melbourne decides to hire two more guys for a Summer job that runs ten weeks tops, they'll now just sub two more C4D installs for a few months apiece on those two machines - total cost less than a grand - rather than paying another $10,000 AU locally for two more full Studio installations. I don't think the owner is going to regret the saving because he can't resell the license later on. Likewise, some grad has finished studying and decides he really, really wants to learn C4D instead of Maya. He has a PC and $500 in the bank. Does he (a.) sub for a few months and spend most of his hours learning the software, or (b. - old method) wait till he's worked another 12 months and has $5000 in savings to give to Digistor to buy Studio? Again, I don't think telling someone "Hey, if this software was a lot more expensive, and stayed that way, you can resell it afterwards!" has a great deal of appeal here. Why am I supposed to do this? I bought CS4 in early 2009 and it was crashy as hell. It was the second time I'd bought the full Adobe package and had my plans to learn it scuttled because the whole thing crashed all the time. My original version of Premiere Pro (CS1) couldn't even burn a movie to disc without crashing. I'd spent hundreds on it, bundled with a capture card, and it was useless. CS4 needed more grunt than the specs suggested and was as flaky as hell on my (pretty good) PC. So that was another wash, one I spent nearly two grand on. Finally I have an iMac, and Creative Cloud, and both work fine. AE has either never or barely (no instance comes to mind) crashed. So why you've put "A bit faster and more stable" in brackets down the bottom like it's a minor thing is a mystery. It's ALL I care about. The apps - and you can add Photoshop and Premiere and Illustrator to the mix - have more than enough features for me to be getting on with. I just want them to work, and not to crash all the time. For me, that goal has been reached. Occasional new features - and they're all getting them - are fine. And my sub a year or two ago was discounted to something like $34 or $29 AU monthly as a special offer for 12 months to get me to resubscribe. So fretting over a pace of development doesn't really come into it for me. All that said at length (and I won't write any more long rambling posts for a while) I get that folks who have paid high $$ for Studio and were hoping for a Christmas-sized new features R21 spec list are double unhappy. Neither of those things really affects or bothers me though. I don't care about reselling C4D down the line, I don't care about some hypothetical future window where I decide I don't want potential new features but do want to sit and work without paying for a sub, and I'm not worried about some imagined day where MAXON have suddenly closed up shop. The only reason I followed C4DCafe and CGTalk threads online for years was because I'd read about C4D back in a 2001 3D World mag during my crummy office job, so even when all I could get was the demo, I was fascinated by what was discussed and shown. (It also took me years to understand even the most basic 3D concepts btw). It's now nearly 20 years later and MAXON and C4D are massively bigger. So I'm not expecting them to close up shop within the next ten years in a hurry to be honest. That's fine, and gives me all the confidence I need to eventually sub. If you disagree, cool, but none of the arguments outlining why things were ostensibly better for users pre-R21 convince, affect or bother me personally.
  7. I've got to say, MAXON's focus on this round of updates actually makes a lot of sense when you view it in light of the other initiative Dave McGavran mentioned during his talk - MAXON and various C4D guys are going to be travelling or meeting up internationally to showcase Cinema 4D to potential new users, both newcomers and those that use other apps. So a lot of where the development focus went this time - which has had some people scratching their heads or feeling depressed - makes a lot more sense. Give it a fresh new UI upgrade and polish and 4K do-over so the first impression is of a really modern app. Simplify the versions so the guys on the road don't have to spend 50% of their time answering or dealing with the question, jeez, should I get Broadcast? What is Prime missing? How much will it cost to upgrade higher in 2021, etc etc. Do some more core rewriting - such as is visible with the GPU sped-up timeline - so things are fresher and more responsive. McGavran emphasised they'd done a fair bit of internal rewriting and modernising, if I heard him correctly. Get the store fixed up so anyone who wants to jump in, can jump in immediately, and do so without having to check if they have $4000 or $5000 or whatever Studio was in the local area, in the bank. And also have Cineversity thrown in with that so they get an added bonus. And have a variety of subscription methods going so if someone knows they'll only have a three month contract coming up, and the work after that - or studies, or whatever else - suggests they might have some downtime, the user can just sub for three months. Yes, it's more expensive per month than the 12-month sub is per month, but it's also cheaper than subbing for 12 months and then only using it for four or five months and then having a period where subbing isn't useful. Which has happened to me at least once with my Creative Cloud sub, though I think at that point I wasn't stuck in a 12 month contract. After that, ideally the influx of new users gives Dave McGavran and MAXON and all the developers a steady new stream of subscription money that they can put directly towards the development of new features. Otherwise, why bother setting up an income stream where people can un-subscribe if a rival app has pulled significantly ahead? Once those subscribers are in the door, the focus will be on whether MAXON can then bring new things to the table and improve what is already there. The doom and gloom suggestion that they only want to get people subbed and then sit back and watch all the other 3D apps push towards getting new features while they themselves use the money to go on a boat trip or something, seems misguided to me. (Note to the venerable IceCaveMan if he cares - my version of After Effects CC 2018, which I think has never crashed, works fine on my old iMac, and I've watched the Mark Christiansen videos where MC happily shows off various rewriting improvements). So I feel there is method to the madness, despite the ten or so guys here and the 12 or so at CgTalk who are downbeat, and who have started posting occasional threads on Blender. Also, that $720 at once quoted above does work out to be $59.99 per month over 12 months, which is the first question some people will want answered when they start comparing it to that $94.99 per occasional month if you don't sub for 12. They could maybe change a word or two, but come on, people are going to see that it's $720 up front as soon as they go to pay - before they choose to click the pay button or not - and it's not like they're going to subscribe, pay, and then get a surprise afterwards when they learn what they've just done. I think people know how online payment forms work at this point, and there's usually a big fat screen in bold type that tells you exactly what's about to happen before you click the payment option. This is hardly some underhand derring do on MAXON's part.
  8. With all respect, as IceCaveMan has been here a long time and deserves to be heard, this hyperbolic, insulting nonsense is a pain to read and does no-one any favours. Autodesk is a global company. Here in Australia they regularly have free industry sessions where they show off their software to young graduates and have Disney animators visiting to show off the behind the scenes workflow from ZOOTOPIA and stuff like that. The Foundry is a global company. Here in Melbourne Mariana Acuna Acosta was regularly flown out here to show off MODO and give big long inspirational speeches about how great the company and the software was. The Foundry guys bought everyone free beer and pizza and Mariana got up on stage in front of the graduates and said, guess what kids, MODO has a special discounted student special starting next week and you can all buy your MODO licenses for a low price. Lots of wide eyes and happy smiles as the graduates all drank and chatted to the Foundry folk and talked how they were keen to get into the software. Digistor held a CINEMA 4D session in Melbourne and I saw it on a mailing list and thought I'd attend. This was just after Cineware had come out. A local After Effects guy gave a talk about some AE features, and I sat next to a Japanese guy who had relocated here and who was an expert at Softimage XSI. He was curious about C4D. Then a middle-aged woman with zero enthusiasm came out and ran through a demonstration of a car bumper being put onto the front of a vehicle - I later saw this exact same demonstration online from a more prominent trainer - and I kind of saw all the enthusiasm drain out of the room. No buzz and I remember wishing Tim Clapham had come down from Sydney to liven things up. From the age of the attendees it didn't seem to be a room of students either. Just folks in post and design who were C4D curious for the day. If MAYA and MODO and other software packages are promoted on a subscription plan to young graduates who have left their studies, who are starting in the industry, with easy to install licensing, and with regular offers to get folks to resubscribe if they lapse, MAXON really should just pack things in if they don't remain competitive and gun for the same customers. This is so blindingly obvious - MAXON's competitors are global, and MAXON will invite trouble if they don't match their competitors strengths - that it boggles the mind that you'd see the comment as indicative of sinister intent. There was a Cinema 4D MeetUp group in Melbourne for a couple of months and I spoke to the guy who ran it. Within a short period of time he'd rebranded the MeetUp as only a few people attending had bought the Studio version of C4D, but everyone there was an Adobe subscriber, so it made more sense to keep shared billing rather than focusing on a software pack that lots of the visitors either hadn't been able to or hadn't been encouraged to buy. David McGavran - who in the behind the scenes videos that have popped up online with him and Paul Babb and others, seems like a completely friendly and jovial and likeable guy - comes and visits this forum, which didn't happen too often with the other owners, and sends a friendly hello before giving what I found to be a sincere talk, certainly much more honest and passionate than his appearance on the Apple stage when he was with Adobe, and IceCaveMan and a few others here respond with really brutal cynicism and sarcasm. As I've mentioned before, this is the sort of snide language that IceCaveMan used against folks who were happily subscribing to the Adobe Creative Cloud. IceCaveMan - are you intending your comments labelling MAXON as bullies, and as the enemy, to accomplish anything productive? If you are, I can't imagine right now what it may be. Here's a nice video below of Paul Babb and Dave McGavran chatting just after the Redshift announcement. McGavran seems honestly excited and sincere. And these are the guys who IceCaveMan tells us are bullies, who want to treat their customers with contempt, and who deserve to be scorned. To be honest I'm seeing ugly behaviour come from one side here, and it's not from the guys at MAXON. The MAXON guys have likely noticed posts - here and at CgTalk - from the 30 or 40 vocal regulars who are unhappy that their standard upgrade procedure with Studio has been chucked for an entirely new paradigm. But surfing around I've seen just as many posts from folks on Twitter, on Reddit, on the Luxology forums and elsewhere who have pretty much all said, "Wow! I can finally afford this! I'll definitely give it a shot." I just find it funny that folks who have been bemoaning the pace of C4D development for years drop to their knees and scream to the heavens when a guy comes along who wants to expand the community, get more people onboard and ramp things up. Next time I visit one of the local post-production meet ups, I'll approach a handful of grads there and ask what they'd prefer, an AU $5610.00 C4D Studio purchase from Digistor, or an annual entry fee here that will probably land at around grand annually. I'll probably also ask how many are apprehensive that MAXON - who can't be too far from celebrating their 30 year anniversary, who just won an Academy Award and who just bought Redshift - will suddenly vanish from the internet and give everyone login errors when they try to activate their sub. I used to feel that millenials, as a whole, were a degree dumber and less informed in online discussions. This thread gives me solid evidence that I should probably consider the reverse proposition and give those newcomers a break.
  9. This is fair enough. And I can see the lack of the bombshell R21 features many were hoping for was some salt into the wound. But neither of those things affect me. For someone in my shoes who never could afford approximately 5 years of the subscription price in one big sum up front, the easier payment requirements will be a much simpler hurdle to jump. I'll be onboard within the R21 cycle and expect to be very happy with it.
  10. Which people in the world are being prevented from subscribing if they want to? Not too many that I've noticed. I remember a lot of these profanity laden comments of your from back when you were irate at Adobe bringing in subscriptions, where you asked users if they were okay being Adobe's 'bitch', and stuff like that. I've got to tell you, that relationship is a consensual one, and very satisfying. It's going to be cheaper for a great many people. Lots and lots of people. All the people - in particular - who couldn't afford Studio before but can now jump on the sub train for as long or as short a period as they want. EJ Hassenfratz calculated that buying into Studio before this - without even having a free option to run on to R22, R23, R24 and so on - was the equivalent of about 5 years of the subscription price. So to a few of us here, the kind of Warner Bros spinning Tasmanian devil rant you're occasionally inflecting is a bit over the top. Studio owners see a price increase in what they used to pay for the MSA. For those who suffer through this, they'll see (a.) plugin developers being given an entirely unified potential customer base, so they don't have to worry that they might make a plug-in that Broadcast or Prime etc users couldn't use, (b.) a hassle-free system to have your one C4D license on both your desktop and laptop without any mucking around, (c.) MAXON seeing more money for development both from the small cost increase and hopefully more new users, and (d.) probably a bunch of other benefits that I'd check and list if I thought for a second you were receptive to hearing them instead of telling us all how great the new edition of Blender is. And as far as 'owning nothing' goes, I think for a lot of people the whole point of given MAXON money will be to have access to the software, and to use it. Concerns about what happens in the future when the predicted meteor strike hits MAXON HQ and the global internet gets disconnected are quite a way further down the list. Yeah I've heard that too. Last time I claimed my Adobe CC sub on tax - which is a thing - they just added up the whole annual sum and let me deduct it. If I'd told them I'd paid it annually, I doubt they would have done anything different. The MAXON sub will work the same way. However, my suggestion that disgruntled users pay the monthly fee into a piggybank for 12 months and then start their sub a year from now is a brilliant one which will save you and others even more money. Not to start flaming. I can feel this back and forth could go there if we each sat and typed away at each other's responses, and I could see the hype didn't serve MAXON well for some users. But the more I think about it the more I wish MAXON had gone subscription only earlier. Being able to roll out updates through the year as they get done will bring a host of benefits that their one-version-a-year practice for the past decade or more couldn't really do. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm sure more cool stuff is coming to C4D very soon, but this change of pricing was long overdue, and I'm sure will get a lot of new people using the app.
  11. And the former works out to be 12 x $59.99 added up, or thereabouts. They’re not exactly pulling a fast one. Chuck $59.99 into a piggy bank each month, then start your sub in September 2020 next year. You’ll get a years worth of whatever they’ve added up to the R22 release date, then another year of updates after that. For years I’ve read posts by people unhappy that they’d ‘fallen off the MAXON train’ and were faced with steep upgrade costs because they were getting slugged a huge fee to jump from R16 to R19 or something. That’s now gone entirely, never to return, and people are still miserable.
  12. Re Macgyver’s comment ‘this won’t work with MAXON’s model’ a couple of pages back re annual rates vs monthly. MAXON can do whatever they want, including doing what Adobe did. The CC rate I was offered - it was 40% off, from memory - wasn’t part of Adobe’s standard rates - it was advertised as a special (probably limited time) offer to get people to resubsctibe. When I ignored the offer due to finances they kept resending me the same offer by email every few months until I was cashed up enough to jump back on. And when I did, updating my CC apps to the latest version took barely an hour while I made a sandwich and coffee and was ready once I finished my meal. MAXON have had sales in the past, and they had a big ‘restart your engines’ sale just a few months back. They’re not going to forget how sales and special offers work just because they’re now offering subscriptions and they’ve listed various rates on day one. People saying ‘we all hate subscriptions’ aren’t speaking for everyone here. I paid the better part of two grand locally for a boxed version of CS4 at the end of 2008 and really wish a sub had been available back then. I would have saved more than half that cost and could have put the savings towards buying a new computer. Someone else mentioned that the changes indicate that MAXON are ‘looking for new customers’. To be honest, I’d hate to imagine where they would be in five years time if the developers of every other 3D app was doing exactly that, and they, for whatever reason, weren’t.
  13. I also don’t care about owning it. I’ll be happy to rent it. Adobe Creative Cloud is great in that (a.) I’ve had a much easier time affording Premiere and After Effects, (b.) when new features appeared I had them immediately and could just surf over to Lynda to see what was up, (c.) through the occasional instances where I was flat broke and/or dealing with health issues and/or raising my young son, I could let the Adobe sub lapse. Adobe would send a couple of reminders and then an email saying it had lapsed but they hoped to see me back. Then months later I’d often get an email from them offering to let me resubsctibe at a 30% off discount or something. It wouldn’t surprise me if MAXON, way down the track, does similar sort of things. Someone stops subscribing, maybe a discounted offer will bring them back in for a while. Both sides win as the user gets a discount and MAXON (for example) gets some more cash for development purposes. The My MAXON account screen and login method looks great. I can chuck it on my iMac and laptop and use the button detailed in Chris Schmidt’s runthrough to set things accordingly. Since I’ve never had a particular grudge against subscriptions I’ve been happy with the Adobe version of this. With all the negative grief being typed over the past 48 hours I want to say it looks like MAXON has done a really nice and user friendly job with it. I don’t anticipate any problems at all. In the future every time I see the My MAXON login page I’ll visualise a big sign appearing nearby it reading YOU DIDN’T NEED TO BUY STUDIO TO GET HERE. LIFE DOES GET BETTER! Digistor, the Australian distributor, still has R20 on sale for the standard local price of $5610, an amount I last saw in my bank account back when I was given a redundancy package from my workplace following the three years of folder filing and shelf stacking they gave me to do after my workplace injury led to five separate operations. When Dave McGavran and others from MAXON said that the licensing changes would let more people get on board, and possibly change their lives, they weren’t lying. I also didn’t detect marketing BS in McGavran’s sincere and passionate speech. Ditto Paul Babb’s “I approve this message” right before it. Some posters at CGTalk - one respected longtime user in particular - are busy posting links to get-started Blender tutorials and acting as if the thread there was one big funeral. I guess opinions will have to differ. I don’t want to belittle the honest reactions from longterm helpful forum members like those but to be honest I think it’s better that users like me and others who struggled to jump the first hurdle - and there must be a few - come in the door, hopefully to stay.
  14. This Siggraph livestream is hilarious. David Brodeur is scrolling through negative instagram comments he's received and is reading them aloud. They're all appearing onscreen. And the user names are blocked out, but he's left the f-bombs intact onscreen, so he reads "Someone has written 'W-T-F is this?'. And then he scrolls past a bunch of comments where the f-bombs are fully spelled out on screen, and just comically glosses over them. I've watched two minutes tops of the livestream while doing other stuff and both of them has been full of f-bombs. My ears are blushing red now. Maybe someone who only uses the new R21 features two or three times a year can just subscribe for a month in each instance and then let it lapse and slide back to R20, if that's what they use. I dunno. That sounds like it'd be cheaper than what they were paying beforehand.
  15. I appreciate Rick's responses here. Thank you. Pixliatednoise - it does feel more flexible for a guy in your position, as you could start your sub once a few more key features had dropped or the newer features became important to you. Hey someone just dropped an F-bomb on the Siggraph live stream! It's during the video of the guys building a Photoshop mountain of Paul Babb's head. It's funny stuff. Foundry thread on the R21 pricing announcement. Some now keen to jump over to C4D, and a couple of saltier responses. But generally they're arguing that the initiative will put pressure on the Foundry to drop Modo pricing. https://community.foundry.com/discuss/topic/148432/c4d-r21-annual-subscription-fully-featured-less-than-720-00

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