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Raischub last won the day on August 14

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  1. Thats the way it is. Think, theres no chance for us, to stop the train. Art from these days. Yes. And therefore everything said here. (As long as evlish plans of Subscription Companies are honored by users, as long as getting your files locked is a trend, as long as people wanna rent instead of buy... These things will go on. No one will stop Maxons new stylish and modern talking CEO) Dot - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - Today, devils no longer have horns
  2. Speculation or not: what can I be sure about? Some of the statements I see myself or consider the developments likely. See it from my side. It is the job of MAXON to eliminate these doubts. As I said before, I know few (if not all) software manufacturers that have convinced me more in the past than MAXON. Every suggestion for improvement was taken seriously. Each question meticulously and (really) answered with much love. A big praise to the past - honestly. I have praised you, MAXON, in forums over and over again, as an example of how to do it. And would not I come to see that I am in a situation where my work (which I am passionately doing) would be in danger of becoming useless, one day I can not open my own data - my anger would not be there. Nothing against any of you - the people who designed and made MAXON big. But it's the same here as with Adobe: There is a course setting from above and the thing gets a new face. I loved the software from Adobe earlier. Especially Photoshop. Even though I never liked the company that much. Adobe was never comparable to MAXON. But from day to tomorrow, I did not even want to see their program logos popping up anymore. Subscription is like living on the nod for me. How to lease cars. Short thought. It does not make anything cheaper - it creates dependency and is therefore not fair (in my eyes). Who earns money with professional software, the acquisition cost of a few thousand €/$ are not a question. (even prices are absolutely not my concern) Subscription also wants to catch those who wish and are happy to have access at all. But at the same time it takes my safety. The security of being able to decide myself tomorrow (Upgrade or not? Change Software or not? ...). The certainty that I have paid for what I use. And the security of opening my customer files whenever I want. (Even in bad times, if they come) I have to invest in PlugIns - in the knowledge that i down´t own anything. If there is a better competition tomorrow I would have to pay both (if I want to use my old files). You are surely in the future, the human great team. But you have the misfortune to be in a company that is more and more oriented towards profit and efficiency. A train of time. But rarely in terms of users and quality. Adobe has more than proven where useful features end with that model. Even the stock market price has now reached the factor of 1000% since CC. Revenues have more than doubled (For those who believe renting is cheaper: with nearly the same number of registered licenses (125%) than before cash cow (CC) 2012). Believe me, I do not think the team changed at MAXON. Although I find it sad how the founders were removed. But I do not believe in the strategy behind the subscription model. Lastly: I will not rent software as long as there are alternatives. No matter if its MAXON or whatever. Having said all that, I see the time has come to replace a software I love very much. And all the plugins I bought and learned. Yes, really, it hurts me. Deeply. But again: Nothing against you - it's about the decision to make MAXON to what is now announced.
  3. OK. If I take the official explanations in the FAQ as a basis: There is no talk of a version 22 Perpetual. No promise. No guarantee. In other words, it remains nebulous. It's up to MAXON. At least MAXON does not want to guarantee that there is a version 22 Perpetual - it depends on how many users are going into a subscription's dependency, right? How many money MAXON will make till next year? And ... If I look at the parallels to Adobe: Of course there was never any talk of a sunset date. (Funny you named it the date of sunset - after sunset, darkness follows) OK: That's actually all I wanted to know (and I think many others). So thank you, too, for not answering one of my questions directly (a MAXON user since one can buy Cinema, I'm taking the cd with the panther.) I wrote that post before reading your last comment - so this edited Thank you.
  4. @Rick Maybe I can understand the Sound of Silence as an tip. Clearly you can´t talk against Companies dictates. So I take it like that. @SiXwork Maybe it´s interessting for you: I just find a comment about Cinemas new Subscription mode on the site of an GER-Software-Reseller. It´s " Software3d dot de" (No doubt if links are allowed here - exact source see bottom ). I hope they forgive me, if one of the MAXON Officials will read this here and they get trouble anyway - because the description they are giving about the new MAXON isn´t that good, when it comes to subscription. They doubt that there will be a future perpetual versions of Cinema (after Version 21). And beside that - they are also (like me ; ) of the opinion, that MAXON doesn´t fit into Nemetschecks Portfolio in the long run (They are mainly active in the field of Architecture & Construction). A takeover from Adobe isn´t that unlikely. The relations are build (not only by the CEO). Their blog-comment in cutouts tranlated by Google (with no corrections - I fear Googles English is better than mine ; 😞 "Cinema4D and Adobe? Maybe we can continue to speculate, what we had already suspected in 2013: in the end, CINEMA 4D not only fits well with Nemetschek, as a construction software specialist, but almost even better to Adobe. With the new CEO (ex-Adobe Manager), close relationships are foreseeable, and if Nemetschek pays off the profits, then another takeover may develop soon and the ring to enslave us will then be continued at Adobe." "Brief summary of the new subscription license model: - There is probably no longer a purchase version in the foreseeable future (our forecast, although currently still a R21 purchase license is offered) - There are then probably sooner or later only rental models like Adobe or Autodesk - and if you do not pay, you have nothing left in your hands - There are no more gradations between the favorable Prime or the specializations Broadcast, Visualize and Bodypaint but only all-or-nothing in the "Cinema4D - Always Online" (corresponds to the studio version) - All existing MSAs are or have already been terminated (service contracts were the precursor to customer loyalty) - Any existing MSA valid until at least September 2019 (no matter which version) will receive Cinema4D R21 (equivalent to Studio) as a permanent license" "In the first view, nothing can really be said against the model. For new users, the pricing policy is even very good and existing users are lured with price offers. Users who are in the MSA (service contract), it is already used to pay regularly get even in the best case from their small version (Prime, Broadcast or Visualize) a large studio with the new R21. Our fears are more that customer loyalty is so high that you can no longer decide freely later, and then either the prices will rise or the development of new features will slow down. As we see it with other products, it is economically logical and most of our customers can do nothing with constantly new features from the studio version." "Fact is current: Cinema4D is and remains an awesome 3D visualization program and has a strong user base. The pricing model is very good for new customers, but we see more of the economic goals and that is exactly what MAXON could hide so far. We may see in a few years whether the program's creative DNA will suffer." "CINEMA 4D - RENT OR BUY?! Since 2013 we regularly have calls in the office, if you can get Photoshop CS6 anywhere" "In any case, we are convinced that there is still a unique opportunity to buy a CINEMA4D license cost-effectively and permanently, without ending up in the circle of permanent debt." "The danger is that the user is completely forgotten. Because if, as a stock corporation, I'm only profit-oriented, and my customers are tightly bound by toggling contracts, how much will I spend on further developing new features? We already have a lot of experience as retailers that our customers (from all shifts and user classes) do not need a new version every year, because the new features may bring some performance or solve special cases, but our customers and most CINEMA4D Users are not the film studios in Hollywood, but down-to-earth artists who use CINEMA4D as a basic hand tool to make small and medium visualizations as daily bread. Many can easily skip multiple versions without missing anything." German only: Software3d dot de > CINEMA 4D > Cinema4D – Ein neuer Weg zum Einheitsbrei. Mieten oder Kaufen, Adobe Cloud macht es vor.
  5. (@ Rick & the Maxons: BtW: Please do not apply the sometimes aggressive tone to yourself. That does not apply to any of the employees I have met so far. Honestly, in the past, I have always considered MAXON to be one of the fairest, most helpful and best software manufacturers. I know that all these statements are often a bit unfair - but it's not against you. It is against efforts to change software licenses/industry against the will of users. It's not against you but what MAXON should reveal. It´s also clear, that none of the employees can speak against the dictates of the company. But, please keep in mind, that the new way Cinema is going - for which you are not responsible - is also aggresive to me and others. Thank you for your understanding) Seen from a strategical/financial few: When they tell us NOW, that there will never be a perpetual version 22 - most of those, who are on version 20 now and absolutely not willing to subscripe, wouldn´t invest in a perpetual version 21 or give money away for renewing their MSA. (Adobe did it exactly the same way & all users of CS5.5 thought, that CS6 will be the last perpetual version to UPGRADE [not CONVERT]. As Adobe often reminded - but never promised or guaranteed. So they invested in that upgrade and were deeply disapointed). And they need money, to go through that period, when many will stay on V21. Waiting till the point, where they can´t live any longer with an outdated software. Cash Cow (CC) also wasn´t adapted by that many over the first years - Only 15% < of licenses were subscriptions within 2 yrs after they took the choice. So keeping this point nebulous will help to get (the last) money of that guys, who are willing to have a perpetual or elsewise leave. They can get money of both - That one who are willing to subscripe and also from that who are not. Marketing blah can continue to claim: "What´s up? There still is (not: will be forever) a Perpetual?" Why is there no official formulation like "We will continue to offer perpetual licenses in the comming years". (Which would clearly be an argument for many of us. MAXON itself emphasized recently: "we are not rent only" - for me it was Maxons MAIN argument) And then (maybe we will see a few subscription updates throughout the year)... latest next year (and I bet there will be great features announced at that point)... Marketing blah will change to: "After Subscriptions are adapted that well, we decided to go this way only." Followed by "Software for the Universe" - or what all these marketing guys are dreaming of. The Perpetual Lovers will see a few (far better than now) Credits if they change their mind & Subscription will show Features we are long waiting for. Every bet. Seems the new CEO (which came from Adobe) is willing to copy the Adobe way. No phantasy or not willing to make it better? We are numbers not users? Coming to the end: Am I right: We will never see a Guaranty (not only nebulous statements) from MAXON, that we can BUY perpetual licenses in the future beyond V21?
  6. I understand you completely. In your situation I would do it like the most are planning...: If you just have the chance to renew your MSA (which actualy should be cheaper than a year of subscription), I would do so (Even if I do not like to advise you to give the NEW MAXON money). You are sparing time. Learning a new 3D Software isn´t that easy. And maybe you have PlugIns which are not transfereable. In this case you have the actual Software & You keep the (not calling home) Version20 also. (Of course you can also stay with V20, but I expect that next year (when they let the cat out of the bag), those who still have honest licenses get far better offers to relinquish those rights. Also depends on whether you can use the functions of V21. I also believe, that we can see a lot of new features at this breaking-point in the NEW MAXONs history/strategy. Maybe some that are saved from V21 ; ) You can open your files at any time without additional Payment. Your Work is in an save place. No one has the key (activation server) to lock them away. In the interim of that year (till they go totaly on subscription - I don´t think we will ever see a Perpetual V22) you can look out and test alternatives. The free ones like Blender (which indeed became a real alternative and still growing like hell) or the competitors (which are - costs - not so far away and have interessting offers/licenses, & in some cases much more features). Depends a bit on what you are doing. Or you can decide to stay with NEW MAXON, in case there is nothing else satisfying you. BtW: Most of my projects are not done with the current Version I OWN. I have many PlugIns which will not work with V20 or I don´t like to renew (because they were BUYABLE in the past ; ) them. So I use old Versions (V17+) all the time and I´m staisfied. Nothing missing. Or very seldom - to be true. What I will say: If you are not willing to go on Subscription, after V21 (as I said - I´m absolutely sure there will never be a V22 Perpetual & the silence from NEW MAXONS Side says the rest) use this Version (and save your money) for a couple of years (3+)*. In most cases It will fit & I wonder if we see all that must have features when everything is on "rent only". (And even if - and you need a new feature for a project - you can subscripe additionaly for a short time) Have a look at Adobe: I can´t see (realy) any Absolutely-Must-Have-Killer-Feature since they invented the Cash Cow (CC) in 2012 (!). There are new Features, naturaly, but I don´t want to edit Video on my CellPhone ; ). Also connecting to the whole worlds communities and social networks isn´t my favorite plan. You know? I think it will not be that different with NEW MAXON. So you have a couple of years to see what competition does and offers. NEW MAXON isn´t a monopolist as Adobe, and in my eyes they are on a risky path. Annoying longtime users is perhaps something that backfires. (And I realy believe they have the plan B - which means Adobe takes over NEW MAXON) So anything can happen. Simply buy time. Don't make yourself dependent to lockable Files.. *) When I say save your money: If you can do it - put the money aside. It is always good to have a plus (For all those who scream hurray, when again somethings only to rent, one has the constant impression, that´s only because the money for investments is missing). May be Affinity comes out - in a few years - with a 3D program and a fair license!?
  7. Didn´t say, there is no one. Even when it sounds a bit strange... Chanching business field - renting a 3D application for a few weeks (espec. printing 3D) - learning the software (some guys need years) - changing business field in the end. But yes, why not. In this case he would be a perfect member f target group. Subscription is OK. As an option. MAXON took the joice.
  8. True. Many people have a Adobe Sub. As Adobe was nearby a monopolist when they lured the graphical world on Cloud Nine. Many had additional invested in Workflows based on their Software. But most of all professional Users I know don´t like to rent. They (have to) accept it because a change seems or is difficult, expensive or impossible. The model is more loved by big agencies and users who do not necessarily make money from it. And - naturaly - by the CEOs of Software Companies.
  9. It's the same with all these online applications and calling home services: you can trust them or not. No one guarantees you which data will be transmitted, which not. Which profiles will result. Furthermore, the activation server must be reachable. Be it I'm abroad and may have no way to go online or restrictions in the country prevent that. Or the registration server at MAXON itself is not reachable. There is no 100% guarantee for this - as some big names in the market (even Adobe) have already proven. Can cost you a lot at the worst possible moment. What else would happen if MAXON / Nemetschek (Adobe?) Did not exist one day ...? I guess only a few had problems with serial numbers in the past and why should the activation server be safer for me? For MAXON - Yes, of course, I can understand that. Further to think about: MAXON can now simply turn off old versions as you like. Put the case - for whatever reason (WIN 10 problem for example) - I want to use an old (maybe even an very old) operating system. MAXON has raised the requirements for this. There is nothing left for me to do but change the operating system. Exactly because there are these rental models, I have a variety of OS versions (some virtual) to avoid exactly this problem. With all due respect - I always feel that disadvantages are being sold to me as advantages. Adobe Dejavues again and again.
  10. Thanks for that answer. But going on with simplyfing the things: One Option will be the simplest at least. Any knowledge about, if MAXON will offer these - headache preparing and complicated - Perpetaul Licenses beyond Version 21? Will we see a Perpetual V22? A Perpetual V23? A Perpetual V24? A Perpetual V25? - Sometimes no answer is the answer -
  11. Tx. Sometimes you do not see the forest for the trees ...
  12. That would clearly not be legal, of course. But with buying a Perpetual license, you regularily buy also a lifelong right to use and sell it. (That defers between countries, but here in GER its the way it is). So I´m waiting for the Fineprint how this "convertion" will be done. Changing a contract from Perpetual to Supscription isn´t an update or upgrade. It´s a totaly different new contract, which takes away benefits that you already own. Interesting from a legal point of view . Especially the point, that they don´t (can´t) take away (buy back) the ability to use Pre-21 Versions. Wonder why. It's not fairness, I suppose, but has legal reasons.
  13. Once again: Thank you for that helpful information. That´s clearifying that point. Seems the conversion to subscription is planed as an repurchase of rights on your perpetual license while at the same time giving you a "new subscription". And with that I lose the possibility of selling my Perpetual license. I'm actually amazed that this should be legal. No good deal in my eyes - but thanks a lot!
  14. @Arte Thanks a lot for clarifying. I can find small parts of what you wrote at Maxons Site and in Forums. But I found NO reference, where MAXON is OFFICIAL PROMISSING that there will be a perpetual Version 22 (or 23). So my question: Is that something you you think logical or do you have this statement officially from MAXON? Or can you name an indication of source? (BtW Adobe promised also a lot and "CS6 will be the last upgrade-able Version" was simply a lie) I can´t find any source where a MAXON Represent guarantees a Perpetual V22, or the promise, that you can jump from Perpetual 21 to Perpetual V22. (V22 -> V23). The Promise, that there will be Perpetual beside Subscriptions in the long run. If they would guarantee, that Perpetual will stay beside Subscription would give the whole Story another Face. But... Why do they cancel the MSA contracts? And why you can´t extend your MSA in 09/19? That´s why I´m sure they go the Adobe way. As far as I know, all MSAs are OFF next September. So this information can´t be true in my eyes, because no one has an active MSA in Sept. 2020. And therefore I believe - no, I´m sure - that we will NOT see a V22 Perpetual. It will be: "stay Perp. 21 or leave". (And maybe the lack of functionality (V21) results in being picked up for V22 - New MAXON isn´t MAXON as we know in the past) Maybe I´m wrong and you can clearify again. So is there any indication of source? Elsewise this information leads to even more confusion and should be corrected or deleted. Meanwhile I´m looking for Alternatives. I can´t find any of this information on Maxons Website (beside the prices)!? The explanations there are more than tenuous. With Cinema I lose a cherished and valuable tool - and many other investments are also affected. I can only wonder with what serenity many accept the rental model.
  15. @ Daniel Seebacher Thank you for this - that´s clearifying a lot of things, which is missing in Maxons communication here, on the Website and elsewere. One question remains open: Which version may I still use if I get out of the perpetual model? I have an existing MSA contract until 08 next year. So get the V21 anyway as perpetual. If I (hypothetically - I certainly will not do that) go into V21 and subscribe to the subscription model - which version can I continue to use if I stop paying? The V21 or ("...to use old licenses") V20? Too bad that Maxons is so quiet about all this. They will know why. But I think they do not just upset me. "Loosing" your Perpetaul license can be interpreted in two ways: Loosing the right to sell it and/or loosing the right to use it. I'm surprised that such a contract amendment is even possible. In my opinion, such an update violates the law that I have acquired with my perpetual licenses. In that respect, an "update" to a subscription model would actually have to be a repurchase contract between me and MAXON, where I sell the rights of my old license back virtually. The fine print would really interest me. I wonder, if they can realy take me the right fo use V21 even if I jump into dependency. I´ve paid for the lifelong use with my MSA contract. But beside all this: It´s realy a bad deal then. Because I give away a Software worth 3.5 K for an credit of 300. In this case I would recommend every Srudio-Owner who likes to rent: Sell your license (as long as there is interesst) and get a fresh subscription. MAXON wouldn´t have made that thing, if they don´t know, that your license isn´t worth 3.5 K any longer because the immoral offers they make to newcommers, sound that promising to many (Uhhh, Huray, THAT cheap - for the moment). I hate this new business model and I´m realy sorry about to leave MAXON. Sorry about all the PlugIns and AddOns (Vue XStream | XP | PIM | Turbulence | VRay & other Render-Engines | Forester | Model-library | and many others - wonder what I will get for) I bought in trusting into this company, which was once one of the best and fairest (was writing that in so many forums). I think, they (MAXON) know exactly, why they can treat long-time users most - they are the most dependent. And they will forget it over time. Nope - It´s like a Dejavue I had with Adobe. But I replaced them - why not again. Competition is great and not that far away.

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