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Posts posted by 3D-Pangel

  1. If I was a professional using C4D to earn a living, then ANY subscription plan makes sense, especially if you have core employees and then need to expand for a particular job (eg.  Core employees go with the annual plans, transitional employees go on the monthly plan).  If your business is predictable enough, you could easily buy X more seats than core employees in anticipation of those busy times as the monthly rates do add up quickly.


    But as a hobbyist, subscriptions are not preferred because you can never go back to your work should you no longer be able to afford the subscription.  This is a hobby after all and what is sad is EVERYBODY is moving to the subscription plan.  Just look at how quickly it can add up for subscriptions  in the C4D eco system (annual rates).


    C4D - $720

    X-Particles/Cycles 4D - $425

    Greyscalegorilla - $399

    Octane - $399

    C4D/Redshift - $983

    C4D/Redshift/Red Giant - $1200

    After Effects - $252

    Vue/Plant Factory - $525

    Terragen - $348


    That is a lot of rental fees.  Things can quickly add up for the hobbyist.  Hobbyists are different than the people who use this software for business for one simple reason:  Hobbyists like to go back to their old WIP's.  When we learn a new skill or master a new technique, we want to go back to something we did 3 years ago and make it look better.  Businesses don't do that unless the customer asks (and pays for) an upgrade to an old work.  Therefore, we  like our licenses to be perpetual because should we no longer be able to afford the upgrades, we still want the ability to revisit that old work.


    Subscriptions cater to the commercial world.  Perpetual licenses cater to the hobbyist.  Unfortunately, perpetual licenses are not priced for the hobbyist. 


    Hobbyists have been left behind by everyone but Blender.  What companies fail to realize is  that everyone probably entered this field as a hobby.  No one decides to make a big investment in CG (be it software, hardware and/or education) without at least trying it first.  Only after they have tried it and had some success with it  in their "hobby" years do they decide that they could be successful with it in a formalized educational curriculum  and then as a professional.  


    Leaving the hobbyist behind with all these subscription plans is not a good long term strategy.  Autocad/Houdini have already realized that.  





  2. There are a few really cool YouTube channels that I wanted to share with people.  In the past, I recommended Corridor Crew (one of their members, Clinton Jones, spoke at a MAXON webinar last month).  All of these sites support my love for visual effects: a craft I have admired since the 1960's when I first saw 7th Voyage of Sinbad (an old Ray Harryhausen movie).  I  firmly believe that to be a better CGI artist, you need to study how they used to fake reality using physical methods.  Remember that the old methods helped form the visual language we  try to replicate in the computer today.  That decades old visual language was formed from a desire to create what looks "good" more so than what looks "real".  So we need to understand that language especially when it comes to lighting, atmosphere, detailing, and generally creating that general sense of verisimilitude that is hard to create in any medium.  The old adage of "you won't know its there, you will only know it when it is not there" has never been more true. 


    So here are some sites (links in titles) that I have found that can help with developing an eye for that visual language using old and new techniques:


    Befores & Afters - A great site that breaks down specific VFX shots from movies and shows.  

    InCamera - To be launched on 9/23/2020.  The show has a tremendous premise -which is this: while CGI is great, the physical effects world of LED lighting, 3D printing, prosthetics, etc. have been advancing as well and that something truly amazing can be created by combining the two.  This will be a "must watch" for me....and the whole point for this post --- please go there and subscribe!!!!

    VFX Geek - Both old and new effects are highlighted here.  Where was this channel when I was young?  Oh yeah....they didn't have the internet back then.


    Visual language also embraces "form" language.  Form language is important when trying to model things that just don't exist but somehow "feel" right.  Never has this been more true when creating sci-fi based organic or non-organic models.  For sci-fi organic modeling, just google Neville Page - top in his field (IMHO). For non-organic, well...my interests are very narrow as you will see by the links below:


    Howard Day - Just pure modeling appreciation here in my favorite genre - spaceships.  No instruction - just eye candy.  Watch it to be inspired.

    Ansel Hsiao - In short, Howard Day on steroids (and Howard Day is awesome).   To be honest, to really appreciate the scale and depth of the detail he puts into a model, better to look at the stills found at http://fractalsponge.net/   For one person to model to that level of complexity takes mental stamina as well as amazing talent.

    Polygon Pen - So you have seen the work of Howard Day and Ansel Hsiao and now want to model a 300,000 polygon space ship of your own.  Well, you best bone up on the hard surface modeling techniques in Cinema 4D that can be found at this site.

    Ian Hubert's Lazy Tutorials - Short tutorials (2 minutes or less) that touch on neat tips and tricks in Blender.   As they are short, they really spend more time on the essence of the technique/approach rather than the "how" and as such are translatable to other applications.



  3. Always a huge surprise when you get an email from Holger explaining that he has updated his scripts and he provides a free download link.  I 100% agree that Holger knocks it out of the park with both his support and the brilliance of his scripts.  


    Folks...there has to be a reason why he has sold 1000 of them!!!  Well worth the money and a must have.


    While clearly explained in his email, I just want re-iterate that  V2.33 is for R23 compatibility only (no new features or bug fixes).  If you don't have R23, you can stay on V2.32 which is compatible back to R21.



  4. 7 minutes ago, ilay said:


    Thank you!

    (but want button back)

    Agreed.  I do admire the admin's modesty and like the concept of the admins removing themselves from the social media syndrome of tallying your "likes" by pegging the quantity to 1,000,000.  But while your totals won't change beyond the 1,000,000 values you have, wouldn't you at least want to get some immediate feedback on your posts?


    I for one really appreciate some of the posts from the admins and wanted to show my gratitude.  But (to be honest), it is only on a few rare occasions that the situation warranted a private PM.  Much easier to just hit like an move on.



  5. 42 minutes ago, luchifer said:


    For what im reading OM is not going away, but Xpresso on the other hand will be redundant once Scene Nodes is fully implemented.

    While I agree, my expectation is that there would eventually two classes of nodes - but both functioning within the same architecture.  The lower class of nodes would be equivalent to Xpresso and hopefully future versions of C4D can load in older versions of C4D that use Xpresso rigs.  Given how Xpresso is used in rigs (characters, models, lights, etc), they really need to keep supporting it but within the new architecture.  That would be the ideal case.


    Just like they moved to the latest version of Python, my understanding is that the changes are not that significant to the older versions and plugins can be easily ported to R23.  My hope is that the same applies to whatever the new node system means to Xpresso.



  6. 59 minutes ago, hobbyist said:


    Hi Dave,


    Is it possible for me to pay the upgrade price you quoted in Euros? I'm based in Ireland, part of Europe and deal in Euros. I contacted MAXON directly about upgrade but got the UK reseller quoting me in GBP (at a higher price than the Euro price). I'd rather deal direct with MAXON in Euros if that's possible. Just wandering if new users in Ireland are forced to pay in GBP when signing up to subscription? Seems a bit odd.









    Things seem to be moving your way relative to currency conversion.  Just 10 days ago the conversion rate was 1.12681 euro's per GPB now it is 1.08337.  So if the upgrade was 850 GPB, then in the last 10 days (just due to currency conversion rates alone) your Euro price dropped from 957.79 euro's  to 920.87 euro's.  The trend is down because I understand that the UK is slower to financially recover than the rest of Europe from the Corona virus so the Euro is stronger than the pound right now.  


    Interesting that there is no direct seller in your region.  I do find that odd.  Given all the currency fluctuations right now as economies recover from the pandemic at varying levels that can create some revenue instability if you have to deal with varying conversion rates.


    Yep....bad time to be a global company.



  7. 22 hours ago, imashination said:

    Just a thought on prices for people to consider; I don't know what the future plans are, but currently you can upgrade from R20 to R23 for a single regular upgrade price. Back in the day many people would skip 1-2 versions of photoshop and just upgrade every 2-3 years for the same price. *IF* MAXON's current pricing sticks around then this could be a viable option for many people, just skip every other upgrade, effectively bringing the upgrade price to less than the MSA; so long as you don't mind skipping the odd version.

    I asked specifically if the current R20 to R23 upgrade price would be in place for future releases: in essence, is this a one-time sale to increase sales or a policy?  Unfortunately, I got this standard response from Mr. McGavran found here


    Interesting how the whole R20 to R23 price, like all perpetual license costs, is a bit of a deep dark secret in that it is not posted on the MAXON web-site.


    One has to wonder why?  Why is any pricing information on any perpetual license upgrades not made more public?


    Well, I submit that the reason is that the number of users who are clinging to their perpetual licenses does represent revenue that MAXON does not want to lose and it varies by region or market.  Does this mean it is a big chunk of their revenue?  No idea....let's just say that they don't want to lose it and leave it at that.  It is money on the table after all. 


    On top of all that, is the fact that the whole annual subscription process kicked off in September, 2019 means that whatever quarter the month of September falls into on the MAXON (or Nemetshek) financial calendar will be ALWAYS be big revenue quarter for MAXON...especially as that corresponds to their release cycle.  All subscribers are re-upping this month for the next year.  That is not good.  They need to generate sales and revenue around the entire year and not have 80% of their revenue occur at this time of year.  You have a miss in this quarter and it puts a cash crunch on the entire year....and MAXON has some debt now with their acquisitions.  Missing revenue targets can happen for a number of reasons -- most of them out of MAXON's control (just look at Covid-19).  For a global company, bad things can happen fast (trade issues, wars, natural disasters, economic collapse, currency devaluation and inflation, macro economic shifts, etc).  So you want revenue occurring year round because if it happens during your big quarter, you have less room to recover.


    So offering future sales either public or private on perpetual upgrade pricing is one way to generate revenue in other quarters.  But MAXON does not want to train their customers on when is the best time to buy.  So that is why they keep that information private.


    That is why I keep urging all perpetual license holders (which I assume are mostly hobbyists like me) to sit on their wallets.  Time is on our side and not MAXON's.  Something may break our way so just resist the urge to get the shiny new ball that is R23.  Remember as a fellow hobbyist, it is a want and not a need.


    Now, if MAXON did initiate an on-going policy that you could go two full perpetual license upgrades for the same price as one upgrade then sign me up!  I go will go quietly into the night as a very happy C4D user and never talk about pricing again.  But right now, I just can't abide nor wish to afford $1000/year as a hobbyist (every two years works for me though).   Some people equally as upset as I am have left the platform completely but I do love the program and have invested a lot of time and money in it.  Blender will always be option if patience doesn't pan out for me and MAXON sticks to their high perpetual licensing costs. 


    Unfortunately for MAXON, I am a very patient person and not going anywhere.



  8. 2 minutes ago, hobbyist said:


    Pubs have been closed for months so that's a substantial amount of money saved for an Irish person. When the pubs fully reopen in 2 weeks though....hobbyist lifestyle is back in full swing baby! 😉


    I hear ya though! I guess I'm just typing thoughts aloud 😆 


    Today I can afford the upgrade or subscription, but next year I really wouldn't know. 

    I'm a fan of Red Giant Trapcode a few years before I am of C4D so I found it exciting seeing the Red Giant Complete included in the MAXON One for what is a good price when compared to individual app cost.


    The pricing structure is probably more accurately described as enterprise pricing at the moment. Particularly those single month prices. There are certainly a lot of freelancers hurting right now that will be weighing up the cost of these subscriptions more so than any hobbyists. For us it's entertainment, a past time, an artistic expression. For freelancers it's the difference of been able to pay rent, put food on the table, or pay a bill during a global pandemic with ruined economies. Actually you might have already said something similar to that previously. When reading it back it looks familiar...soz





    No worries.  I had to laugh at your first line though!  I feel your pain!  We all do.


    But you get it...this can be an expensive hobby that has no practical applications other than feed your own soul.  My brother has wood working as a hobby.  A real master too!  Yes...he probably spends close to what we spend on his hobby but when he is done his wife has a dining room set.  Far more practical.  😉



  9. 43 minutes ago, DasFrodo said:

    This is, and has been from the second subscriptions were announced, my biggest gripe.

    I would really love to pay the monthly fee, but I simply cannot pay an entire year upfront, and the markup for the REAL monthly subscription is just insane.

    Agreed.  Funny how they can do it for the billed monthly crowd at $89.  Not really sure what their concern is over monthly billing at the annual subscription price and I do not accept that legal mumbo jumbo about how leases work in various countries.  I would imagine that the US is a pretty major market and you could make it work here.  If Srek's comments about Mr. McGavran pushing everyone is true, then he can push the development of different versions of the license server for different regions.  Geeze...MAXON is supposed to be a global company after all.  Get with the times...hire a few accountants and people trained in global compliance or borrow them from Nemetshek.


    You want to put some teeth into monthly billing at the annual subscription rate then do this:  Miss a payment (the $60 credit card charge is declined for whatever reason that month) then you have one month to correct and make your missing $60 monthly payment.  After that month, your license is shut down and your annual subscription is blocked until its time of renewal.  This means that if you want to keep using the software until the end of your original annual subscription , you must pay the higher monthly rate of $89 (Sign up required on a month by month basis).


    Yeah...that would put a shudder down my spine.


    This is a big stumbling block that MAXON has to solve.  There is a higher probability of me being able to make a true $60 payment each month for as long as I am alive and able to use the software then there is for me to make a lump sum $720 or $1000 payment once a year.



  10. 40 minutes ago, hobbyist said:

    I think if anything we'll see a more affordable MAXON One subscription to entice people into the entire ecosystem. It'd be kind of like a 3D/2.5D Creative Cloud.

    The current offer to come off perpetual works out around 40%/50%? less than going individual subs, which is massive for anyone who already has Redshift and interested in the post-production workflow.


    In saying that, I certainly would love to see an indie license option or more affordable yearly perpetual, but MAXON One looks likely King in the long term.

    MAXON One may be king for the professional user but as a fellow hobbyist, I do not see it.  In order to take full advantage of Red Giant, you need After Effects, which means Creative Cloud for $635.88 USD per year.  Total subscription cost is then $1,834.92 when you add in MAXON One.  Honestly, that is like buying a full license of C4D every two years.  Not sure how much of a discount you are expecting in the future for MAXON One, but right now that is a lot of cash every year to rent software (remember -- you stop paying you are left with nothing).  Add in other costs for this hobby like keeping your hardware up to date, purchase the occasional tutorial here and there or a few plugins (which also have their own annual license costs) and your hobby costs could easily rise to $3000+ per year.   You go this path, then you are locked in to some pretty significant costs each year if you want to keep pursuing your hobby.    You can lease cars for less than this amount.


    If you can support all that as a hobbyist, then I would say you are one lucky person.




  11. 18 minutes ago, DasFrodo said:

    That is true as long as you assume people pay monthly.

    Remember, if you want true montly payment you pay almost twice as much! I am pretty sure that most businesses will not take this route, but rather annual subscriptions unless they know their required licenses are fluctuating hard all the time.


    You  forget Shrikes comments.  He praised the license manager for being able to shift subscription seats around within his business.  Therefore, businesses may find that due to their own financial outlook due to Covid-19's impact on the entertainment industry they may re-up the annual subscription for less seats then they had in 2019.  Remember, all those annual subscription seats are coming due this month as it has been about one year since they were first introduced.  If the business future is a little bleak for any studio, then they are going to drop a few to meet their own financial needs. If business picks up they can quickly add them but until that point they need to worry about their cash outlay TODAY as they are  all coming due. That is how I would plan it in periods of uncertainty because there is no penalty for downsizing now and adding back later.


    What this all means is less  cash to MAXON today and an uncertain cash flow in the future.  That is why I say time is on our side.



  12. 1 minute ago, DasFrodo said:


    It really is sad. I LOVE paying for a software that I use a lot and that I enjoy. I have never met anybody that had problems with paying for something that they enjoy. But as I am bound to a budget, just like everybody else, there comes a certain point where I cannot justify the amount of money needed which is why my private license is going to be R21 for the foreseeable future.




    An annual $1000 upgrade price is something I am NOT signing up for.  I would be perfectly happy just buying a whole new license every 4 to 5 years  than shell out that much cash for an upgrade given how slow MAXON is to release new features.   Also, this is a key year for MAXON.  This is the first year where people under the MSA program are now facing a choice: Subscription or Perpetual.   Business owners will choose subscription but I would guess that given how hard Covid-19 hit the entertainment industry, there may not be as many subscription sales in 2020 as there were in 2019.  The beauty of subscription for a business owner is there are no penalties for dropping a few seats and then adding them back in when you need them.  MAXON may find out that the subscription model is NOT a much of a guarantee of re-occurring revenue as they hoped.  It is not recession as proof as would be the MSA program where the penalties for not renewing the MSA program were higher future license costs.  Also, people like me are probably not too fond of the $1000 USD costs for a perpetual upgrade either.    So this will be an interesting year for MAXON.  On top of all this, they are either cash-strapped or in debt from their Redshift and Red Giant acquisitions.  Even in the best years, changing your revenue model to something that is never popular with users after two big acquisitions has risk.  Now throw a global pandemic on top of all that and it is NOT a pretty picture.


    I do believe that time is  on our side and quite happy to sit on my wallet for the foreseeable future until something breaks our way be indie licenses or a more favorable perpetual license model for hobbyists.



  13. 2 hours ago, Hrvoje said:

    Thanks @jonmoore and @Shrike for extensive effort in posting valuable feedback.


    There is nothing in your post that we don't agree on or haven't explored already. Now it is just time factor involved 🙂

    I know your comment about what is being explored applies to C4D's capabilities and  that you probably have no insight to where the internal discussions are going on indie licenses.  Honestly, I do hope that indie licenses are being as carefully considered as the ongoing development of Neutron.  


    The comments made by Shrike and Dasfrodo that missing indie/young/hobby users at a lower price point will starve MAXON of future revenue cannot be ignored.  While I state that Blender gives us options, I guess it is also true that hacked software gives them options too (which is really sad).   


    Unfortunately, impassioned posts on the Cafe are not going to move the needle on indie pricing.  Slow sales on R23 will move the needle.  Remember that this is probably the first full release where people are no longer covered by the MSA program of the past.  Revenue, be it subscription or perpetual, from this release is what sets the tone for MAXON's future.





  14. 51 minutes ago, Adrien said:

    With all due respect Dave, I think you (=MAXON) tend to complicate things too: just have a proper section on the site telling visitors how they can upgrade to R23 when they own a perpetual license, show the price and add online purchases. That’s way faster and easier than having to call a reseller or checking a website where the information is completely buried, or worse, having to post a message on this forum.

    Besides, most people did not  understand the jump from R21 to R23. Some of my friends who own a perpetual license thought they had missed a version. R22 would have been just fine for everybody don’t you think? 



    There is also some NEW information in Mr. McGavran's post that I wish I had known about last year prior to upgrading from R20 to R21 at the MSA price for the last time...and that is the ability to do a perpetual license upgrade from R20 to R23 for the same cast as upgrading from R21 to R23.  Had I known that, I would have waited.


    When was that plan publicly announced?  Probably never (AFAIK).  Here is why:


    I would imagine that revenue from existing customers is greater than revenue from new customers. Subscription prices are fixed for current subscribers and I come to that conclusion as I  recall some legal arguments about why they can't make changes to contract pricing in various countries.  I can't remember the details, but that was the sense I got when they explained why MAXON cannot have true monthly billing versus annual billing on subscriptions as it was due to leases, contracts, etc.   Is it a real concern or a bid to hide behind legal mumbo-jumbo?  Not sure.   But one thing is certain: As with any company, MAXON needs some room to maneuver to capture revenue should sales be below expectations and they may only be able to do that with perpetual licenses.    So I think if they commit to announce pricing  in "EVERY MARKET" on perpetual upgrades they loose some of that wiggle room.  They don't want to communicate to everyone that existing customers in the US are getting better deals than the UK.  So they play their cards close to the vest.  They also want to give away deals when they don't have to.   I can't blame them...that is smart business.


    This could explain the new information (at least to me) to upgrade from R20 to R23 for the same price as upgrading from R21.  That was a deal you would only get if you called MAXON as  a license R20 holder and  that deal was probably not in play when I renewed my R20 to R21 MSA for the last time.


    That is why for those who are perpetual license holders and want to stay perpetual license holders, I advocate waiting.  Something you can afford may be in your future.  I hope so because I just can't be shelling out $1000 every year for an upgrade.  


    For those who are subscription license holders, you may be thinking "why is this an issue".  Well...let me describe the worst case scenario.  You can afford $720/year so you are comfortable.  But what if MAXON started to increase subscription costs to a $1000/year (ala Autodesk)?  That may be beyond your budget....but if you opt out, you now have nothing.    I am not saying that will happen but that is something you need to think about when you consider the plight of the perpetual license hobbyist.



  15. 3 hours ago, FLima said:

    I gotta say, as a subscriber of C4D, and also owner of a perpetual license of R18.
    Not having the upgrade informations available to all customers, and acessible online worldwide... as easy as it is to purchase a new subscription... feels like a intentional bottleneck, to filter out everyone else who isnt a subscriber.  

    There has to be a way to integrate a new business model (subscription) without having to make perpetual users to feel like complete outcasts? 

    Also, speaking from a subscription client perspective, I feel that we need a more transparent roadmap of the software, things that we can look forward to.
    This update, personally for me, it isnt major to what I needed personally, comercially speaking. 
    I dont use the premade character skeletons to any of my projects.
    The viewport changes were okay, but the magic bullet looks thing feels more like a gimmick than an actual improvement on things we wish we could do.
    There were no updates on NPR rendering, the toon shader remains untouched, no way to preview it on viewport without using interactive render region, that it is still..very slow to this day.

    There are some nice quality of life changes, and Im happy for those. 
    And I appreciate all the hard work the developers put into this, and I know it is no simple process. 
    But yeah man... this expensive subscription..  going in blind to every update. \

    This was the main problem with being a Studio MSA holder in the past and paying a premium for that MSA over what Prime and Broadcast license holders pay and then finding out that the latest release has no benefits unique to the Studio version.  In essence, why am I paying more for the same benefits everyone else is getting at a lower price.


    Well, at least under the MSA program and the perpetual license program, if you don't like where the program is going you can opt out and STILL have access to your current version.  Not so with subscriptions.  If you opt-out, you have nothing until MAXON releases an update you do like and then you can rejoin the subscription plan.


    Interesting that you think subscriptions are expensive at $720. Try perpetual upgrades at close to or over $1000 - especially if you are a hobbyist.  I could do a subscription for 4 years and have nothing or just purchase a whole new license every 4th year and have something that I can keep and still save some money over the perpetual license plan and only costing $615 more than the subscription plan -- but you now get something you can KEEP!  Given their pace of development, the program doesn't change as fast as Blender.  Maybe waiting won't be that bad for me and in 4 years, the program will have something that everyone will like.  


    For those of us that hate the subscription plan and shudder at the high cost of a perpetual license upgrade, starving MAXON of funds for 4 years may drive the change we all need.  Remember that this is a different economy right now (everyone is hurting: customers as well as clients in the entertainment industry).  MAXON has Redshift and Red Giant to pay for and probably have lost some customers with the transition to subscriptions.  So time is on the hobbyists side.  We just have to get out of the mentality of "I need the shiny new ball right away"!


    Not at that price (near or above $1000).




    "We are in the endgame now"

  16. 7 minutes ago, DMcGavran said:

    Sometimes I feel like you try and complicate things 🙂


    If you have an R20 Perpetual you can upgrade to R23 Perpetual for 850 Euros plus tax etc.


    If you have an R21 Perpetual you can upgrade to R23 Perpetual for 850 Euros plus tax etc.


    If you have an older license it is 1700 Euros plus tax etc.


    There are different prices in different currencies.  We are happy to sell this to you as are our resellers.  Just contact one.   


    We also are offering 25% off a 1 year subscription for a limited time for expired MSA customers.





    It is not my intent and I apologize if it appears that way.  Very clearly explained and a bit surprising as this upgrade pricing from R20 is new information to me.


    If I may respectfully tread on your patience one more time:


    Is this pricing policy unique to the transition from MSA programs to perpetual or will it be offered when the next full perpetual license is released (say - for the sake of argument - R25). 


    Will I be able to go two full license upgrades in the future (for example from R21 to R25) for 850 euros?


    I would imagine that this would be a very important pricing program for hobbyists everywhere as paying $1003 USD every two years is far more affordable than paying it every year.  We don't make money on C4D....we just love using the program and the capabilities of the program are growing so fast that I probably need two years to grow into it anyway (this is not my day job after all).



  17. 5 minutes ago, HansChr said:

    How can this be when most other software companies have solutions where you can upgrade on their website with your local tax added? There isn't even a price shown.


    I can't think of any other plausible reason than MAXON wants to signal that perpetual licenses and upgrade licenses are yesterdays solutions. You have to go through a lot of troubles to reach the upgrade so why not just go the subscription way instead. Next step I believe is abandoning perpetual license option (and then I'm gone). The way the license options are presented looks a bit like Sketchup's website just before they stated that perpetual licenses would be discontinued.

    Plus, their pricing web-page has a "change region" function...so I would imagine that it could automatically factor in the currency and taxes in the pricing when you change regions. 


    Unfortunately, Mr. McGavran's post even added more confusion because he stated  that 850 euro cost was upgrading from R20 OR R21....the key word being "or".  Plus R20 was the pre-license and pre-subscription so  this DEFINITELY IMPLIES one cost on whether you are upgrading one full release to two full releases....provided that is what Mr. McGavran meant to say.


    Very interested in hearing more about that.



  18. 12 minutes ago, DMcGavran said:

    Its 850 Euros from R20 or R21 -> R23.  Plus tax etc for your local area.  You need to call so we can verify your current license and upgrade it.  This is the price I mentioned last year, no change here. 




    So you can go two full "perpetual" licenses for one price (850 euro or $1003 USD) as you said "R20 or R21 --> R23"???  I know with S22 in the mix, sequentially numbered upgrades along the perpetual path are a thing of the past, but you did mention R20 in your post which implies two full perpetual license upgrades (R20 --> R21 --> R23).


    Again, to be clear because this is important, is the 850 euro price the cost for upgrading to the next release ONLY or will it ALSO be the cost to upgrade two full releases in the future?







  19. 12 hours ago, srek said:

    There is no R22. R indicates a version available to subscribers and perpetual users, S indicates a subscription only release. The numbering is continous.


    Pricing and 23 itself should become available later this day in the MAXON Shop.

    Once again, no R23 perpetual upgrade pricing at the web-site.  Can anyone from MAXON please explain why perpetual upgrade pricing is such a deep, dark secret?


    Why do I have to call the local sales office?    This has been asked but not answered by a number of people over the last year and MAXON has been quiet about it.  Again, not sure why.


    I do have a couple of theories though:


    1. MAXON is embarrassed by the price - they know it is high relative to how loyal customers upgraded in the past via the MSA.  
    2. Originally, the perpetual upgrade price WAS going to be $720 and the subscription price was going to be the old MSA price of $650 but they made a mistake when they released the subscription pricing at the $720  cost.   So they picked $995 because it sounded nice.
    3. Perpetual pricing is determined by a MAXON sales professional spinning a giant "Wheel of Fortune" type roulette wheel with varying pricing values on it and a few traps like "Past Perpetual licenses flip to subscription", "License server goes down just for you...permanently" and the dreaded "The only upgrade path for you is completely new license at $3495"
    4. Test marketing shows that by having a highly trained MAXON sales professional with 6 years experience doing grief counseling walk you through the sticker shock, they will see 20% higher sales.
    5. They posted it once at the web-site in Germany and the offices got egged.
    6. They posted it once and their support desk was flooded with calls complaining that the web-site must be in error.
    7. MAXON sales professionals love hearing the anguish in our voices.  They record every call and play the best back to everyone during happy hour on Friday.






  20. 13 minutes ago, MauricioPC said:

    Any news on an indie version?

    News?  No.  Rumor?  Nope to that too.  Whisper?  Not a peep.  


    A deep burning hope in the hearts of hobbyists everywhere?  Always....but that and $1.80 will get you an N95 mask which is probably far more useful in today's world than hoping MAXON makes a move towards indie licensing.  In short, hope is a bad strategy.  A better strategy is for hobbyists everywhere to not upgrade and wait as long as you can.  We want R23...but we don't need it.  We don't make money on it....it doesn't feed our families.  So if we all waited everywhere and in every market and corner of the globe, maybe....just maybe....our combined lack of revenue means something to MAXON.  That is the only way to move the needle on Indie licensing.



  21. 3 hours ago, Decade said:

    Well, I should probably comment on R23 here !

    Looks like a good range of features, great to see Character Animation getting some love, can't wait to try the new UV tools. I'm coming from R21, so a good range of new features from my POV, just need to speak to MAXON UK & see how bad the perpetual upgrade price is.

    My guess is a crushing $995....the cost of missing your MSA deadline and having to do a one revision upgrade in the pre-subscription days.  Notice that perpetual license upgrade costs are not part of their web-site and still require calls to your local MAXON sales office.  Not sure why?  Prices vary by region maybe.  Ability to negotiate a lower price for long term customers?  Probably not.  Interestingly enough,  I think it was quickly stated in today's presentation that perpetual license upgrade costs will require a call to MAXON which is the first time I think I have ever heard it referenced publicly (I could be wrong....)


    As for me,  it almost feels like MAXON wants to suppress the fact they offer a perpetual upgrade at all....which does not bode well for the future of perpetual licenses.  If not, why keep another sales option in the shadows?





  22. 1 hour ago, Igor said:

    Hi everyone,


    as usual in this time of the year, we like to share our thoughts about new MAXON release, so feel free to have a civil discussion here and share your thoughts.



    Cinema 4D R23 Feature Highlights

    New Character Animation Tools: Includes new Character Solver and Delta Mush workflows as well as a new Pose Manager and Toon/Face Rigs.

    Animation Workflow: Better Keyframing, Filters for the Timeline and Attributes Manager, and more.


    UV Workflows: All the powerful UV editing capabilities introduced in Cinema 4D S22 (the subscription-only upgrade) plus new tools geared toward UV workflows for hard-surface models.


    Magic Bullet Looks Integration: Easily apply one of over 200 preset film looks, import LUTs, or work with individual tools for color correction, film grain, chromatic aberration and much more.


    Scene Nodes: Scene Nodes allows users to explore massive Distributions and Procedural Modeling in advance of the further Cinema 4D core engine development for optimal creativity and experimentation.



    No YouTube videos of Scene nodes?




    Neutrino Man wants to come out an play!!!






  23. 1 hour ago, Igor said:

    Have been using C4D for years without any plugin and still managing to model everything, like Jay I rarely stumble on something I cannot do. Actually I don't remember when was the last that happened. ☺️

    I tried all other softwares, but always coming back to C4D. Object Manager is something I cannot replace with any other 3D package.

    100% agree...and that extends to every manager in C4D. They all just make sense. The managers and C4D's stability keeps me using the program.  I did try modo 401 and while the modeling tools were outstanding I just could not get my head wrapped around their object manager (every mesh in the scene was under one item called "mesh" in the object tree -- why?).  Likewise, while Blender has made some improvements, it still does things that don't make sense (eg. parametric objects only stay parametric with first activation -- why?).  And while Blender now has an OM, you can't drag and drop materials onto items in the OM.  I used to take the entire tag architecture of C4D for granted because it just made so much sense.  I mean, all these programs are written in C++ which is an object-oriented architecture so a tag architecture should seem like a logical way to go. But it is not.


    A good test for me with any new software is to see how far I can get using the demo without the benefit of any documentation or training. If you can use it straight out of the box, then you know you will have a pleasurable user experience.  I got further with C4D than with any other program.  That same experience with Blender was a little "clunky".


    So, if I may quote Cerbera), Blender just doesn't feel like home.  But that does not mean it could never become home.  To continue with that analogy, everyone hates to move but when things get too expensive living where you are then you have to move. I would hate to move to Blender, but that is up to MAXON in their pricing decisions on what the hobbyist user means to them.  


    My ideal world?  Blender focus on improving their object and texture managers (drag and drop capability, ctrl-copy, etc) and brings them up to C4D standards and Insydium (already in the Blender camp with Cycles) ports X-Particles to Blender.  That would get me to move.





  24. I went to the Maya site in search of the indie license information.  Interestingly enough, they hide that as well as MAXON hides cost information about their perpetual license upgrades.   I did not find any information on the indie licensing.  I had to do a wider Google search (check here) to find that it was $250/year. 


    It is apparent that Autodesk is setting the price ceiling on subscription licensing fees and that MAXON's position will always be competitive to what Autodesk does (eg. something lower).  Maya's licensing fees are absolutely horrendous and death to the hobbyist: no perpetual licenses and $1620/year.


    As a hobbyist, nothing would drive me to Blender faster than should MAXON follow Maya's subscription plan . 


    But nothing would keep me perpetually dedicated to Cinema 4D faster than if MAXON followed Maya's indie plan.


    So obviously, something drove Autodesk to offer an indie license and I am pretty sure that it wasn't just because they wanted to be nice people and feel good about themselves.  It was probably something we all expected:  Their customer base of indie users was bigger than they expected and they lost a good chunk of that base when they implemented their high cost subscription plan.  Where that base went (Houdini, Blender, C4D) is anyone's guess, but it represented enough revenue to Autodesk that they took it seriously and wanted it back and thus implemented their indie pricing plan in key markets only (obviously markets with a lot of indie users ---- proof enough that they weren't just being nice guys but trying to win back customers).


    I think MAXON is trying to dance somewhere in between with a subscription plan that is acceptable to everyone.  Whether or not the hard core hobbyist buys into their middle ground approach will become evident over the next couple of months as the last of the MSA's expire and the hobbyist is faced with a choice:  submit to the subscription plan for however long you want to keep using C4D or pay the higher cost of a perpetual license.


    So...if history is any judge....I say we stand our ground.  No matter how exciting the next release looks, hold onto R21.  Every company sets budgets predicated on a prediction of future revenue.  Given MAXON's recent acquisition costs (Redshift and Red Giant), their cash reserves may not be what they once were...some of their cushion could be gone.  So meeting their revenue targets could be something they deeply care about more about now than they did in the past.  Therefore, if that revenue is unexpectedly less than what they predicted, they could change plans in favor of the hobbyist.  That is what Audodesk did. 


    So hold tight people and see what happens.  


    "We are in the endgame now"



  25. So what makes the Enterprise is the reflectance off the hull more so than the color of the hull....in particular what they call "Aztecing" which is variable reflectance off the hull panels which was instituted via a $400K paint job on the Enterprise model from the 1979 film.  I have played a great deal with this in R19 but have yet to convert them to R20 nodes.  In R19,  the breakthrough for me was to use fresnel gradient masking between two different aztec images (just a bunch of grey squares of varying contrast overlapping each other) and then pump all that into the reflectance color channel.  As the light angel changed, the fresnel gradient mask would vary which aztec image would do the masking and that created the hull pattern reflection flickering we have grown to expect in any Star Trek model.


    I hope this helps.




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