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Posts posted by 3D-Pangel

  1. Interesting to see that the debate on cost continues...and interesting to see that I no longer wish to argue the point.  


    Rather, I would like to have a serious discussion on win-win options that benefit everyone!  To do that, let's get to core of what MAXON and long time users want:


    MAXON:  MAXON wants a re-occurring revenue stream coming from their user base.  You really can't blame them for that and subscriptions are a great way to make that happen.  All moves made with R21 (one license, pricing on subscriptions, license server, etc) are all very good moves for their business as it reduces cost while at the same time providing a path to a more predictable future revenue stream.  With business, cash flow is king and if you can get to a business model that almost guarantee's a cash flow over time, then that just makes long term planning on head-count, acquisitions, product development easier.  Plus, investors love it. 


    Long Time UsersWe have spent years building up assets (plugins, models, scenes, scripts, libraries, etc.) specifically tailored to C4D.  And each year, we add to those assets and those new assets are minted in the latest version of the program.  Unfortunately, the nature of software development is that everything is forward compatible (R19 files will work in R21) but NOT backward compatible (R21 files will not work in R19).  As such, we still want access to all the new assets we create each year with each release of the program ON A PERMANENT BASIS.  So we prefer permanent licenses. Talk of turning off access to those new assets in any way after we have paid for the software bothers us significantly.  So any "sale" on switching from a permanent license to a subscription that turns off the permanent license is extremely upsetting.   Finally, raising the cost of permanent license upgrades significantly for loyal long time permanent license holders just hurts.  Now we feel trapped because the nature of upgrades is such that the longer you step off the upgrade path the more expensive it is to step back on.  MAXON needs to appreciate the sacrifice of time and money people put into mastering their program and it needs to be respected with whatever business model they develop.


    To summarize:


    MAXON wants the re-occurring revenue that comes with subscriptions

    Long time users never want to lose access to their assets but do not want to be raked over the coals to upgrade their perpetual licenses with each release.




    To set the stage for this proposal, lets assume that a subscription stays at $720/year while the upgrade cost for a perpetual license is $950.  MAXON keeps those prices and options as-is but to it adds the following option for ONLY permanent license holders


    Win-Win Scenario 1


    You are permanent license holder for the current version at the time a new version is announced.  If you enter into an subscription plan for that newly announced version  then should you decide at some point in the future leave that subscription plan, you can convert your current subscription license to a permanent license for a small additional fee  - say, $100.  Remember that you paid for that subscription up front.  So opting out does not cost MAXON anything but only nets them an additional $100.  As this decision will most likely be made at the time a new release is announced, you are paying this additional money for a permanent license to the previous version. 


    As an example, assume you are an R21 permanent license holder and R22 is announced.  Then to get into this plan you have to accept an R22 subscription.  In the future when R23 is announced and you decide to NOT continue with the program, you can convert your R22 subscription license to a permanent license for an additional $100. 


    MAXON can make this a 1 time event for people who are leaving the program only and make those converted permanent licenses non-transferable.  Under this plan,  you stay current with your subscription plan year after year but should financial circumstances change and you can no longer continue with the program, then the fear of losing access is now removed by that $100 option to keep your most current version still active with a permanent license.  All the costs to get back into the program in the future are the same as they would be for people with down-revved permanent licenses.  


    Another version of this plan which is more attractive to MAXON (and a little less attractive to the user) is the same as before but with the following change:


    Win-Win Scenario 2:

    You can ONLY get the option to convert your current subscription license to a permanent license for an additional $100 if you continue with your subscription for the next release.   


    For example, you have an R21 permanent license and sign up for the R22 subscription plan as before.  When R23 comes out, you can only convert your R22 subscription license to an an R22 permanent license for an additional $100 should you decide to continue with the R23 subscription.  This option continues year after year netting MAXON an additional $100 each year while preserving their subscription revenue.


    This option is still "somewhat" attractive to the user because it lowers the annual cost of a permanent license from $950 to $820 (subscription cost plus $100).  This permanent license should be discounted because it is a permanent license on a down-revved version.  Now the big downside to users with  Scenario 2 is that should you decide to completely opt out of continuing with R23 and are severing ties with the program, then the last permanent license you will have will be 2 versions down from the most current (in this example, R21 as the current subscription you have is with R22 which you will NOT be renewing).  Therefore you could lose access to your last years worth of work but over time, any plan that ONLY puts 1 years worth of work at risk is still a much better plan than a pure subscription model where everything done with a subscription license is at risk.


    The other win-win for MAXON with both scenarios is that it encourages new users who have ONLY used C4D via a subscription plan to consider purchasing a permanent license at some point because these benefits ONLY extend to PERMANENT LICENSE holders.  You can't enter into this $100 annual program unless you do so with a current permanent license.   At some point in the far future, subscription users are going have the same concerns over access to their assets after they leave the  subscription plan that old timers like myself have.  They may want this option at some point, and the only way to get there is to buy a permanent license at full cost.


    Please take the time to consider this.  As much as I have spoken against subscriptions, I understand the business forces driving you to do it.  MAXON has always been very good to its customers and its employees in the past and I hope that culture to create win-win scenarios for everyone did not get lost in the midst of your new business model.




  2. 3 hours ago, srek said:

    So no, MAXON is not cash strapped at all, on the contrary, we just merged with a company that is not only very good at making software, but also very good at making profits. Please don't spread unfounded rumors.

    So maybe Nemetschek should re-word its press release:


    n this transaction, MAXON acquires the US company Red Giant by combining a cash consideration of around EUR 70 million and granting shares in MAXON. 


    Plus - I still see risk in handing over $77M USD at a time when MAXON is re-vamping its revenue model from sales to subscription as history has shown that this type of change always creates a short term drop in revenue with a return to profitability in 3 years.  Add to that the cost of Redshift (whatever that may be and however that transaction was being handled whether it be by stock and/or on-hand cash or debt) and any reasonable person would begin to wonder about financial risk.


    Now, add to the financial risk is the fact that all mergers/acquisitions have some organizational risk.  Any type of acquisition or merger always creates periods of instability for both companies.  There is always some adjustments as management roles change and both companies try to figure out their place in this new relationship.   Even if the newly acquired or merged company is left alone, the fact they have been merged and/or acquired implies that there will be a change to "something" - otherwise what was the point?  So as the two companies come together, then there could be changes to long term product road maps, current product development, and/or product development teams.  It is hard to go through something like this without some loss to productivity and/or headcount changes because not every employee is always going to agree with the "new" direction and/or management structure.  That is just human nature.


    So again, there will always be some instability as MAXON tries to absorb not one, but two merger/acquisitions within 6 months.  Now, if MAXON was a huge corporation (eg. > 5000 employees) then the risk would be less - but there is always risk.  Even huge corporations can fail at the simplest of mergers. But  MAXON is not huge - in fact they are quite small by comparison - so this will have some impact....and therefore risk.


    Plus, the majority of us don't see the synergies behind the Red Giant "merger" right away.  That's a problem.  For example, if it was Insydium we would all go "of course" because those two companies have alignment:  X-Particles fills a big hole in MAXON's tool set.  Therefore we would not be that concerned about how well Insydium merges with MAXON because we see the synergy behind that merger.  But we don't see that with Red Giant and so we have to wonder how well this will work.


    So this news creates questions and concerns that are quite reasonable ones to raise and not baseless rumors.  Can a small company like MAXON take on this amount of change in such a short time: change to revenue structure coupled with two big acquisitions or mergers.


    That is a lot to put on Mr. McGavran's plate and I do wish him the best.  Despite how much I disagree with their new subscription and perpetual license models - I want MAXON to be so successful that their viability during my retirements years is a no brain-er because growing with (and being able to afford) C4D is how I I want to spend my retirement.



  3. Wow.  $77 million USD plus 15% of MAXON.  What did they pay for Redshift?  Anyone know?   It would have to be at least equal this amount.   Spending that much for Red Giant is kind of a risky move at a time when MAXON is  still trying to absorb Redshift AND changing their entire revenue model. 


    Financially, I wonder what their debt to equity ratio is right now?  Are they starting to be cash strapped? No wonder perpetual licenses have gone up 53%.  


    Sooo....don't expect any big changes in MAXON's prices for C4D any time soon.  They need the cash.

  4. Just  a thought, but we are all approaching this from the standpoint of how C4D will integrate Red Giant's 2D plugins.   Maybe we are looking at this backward.  Could some of C4D's architecture -- specifically its MoGraph architecture -- be adapted to a 2D plugin for Adobe?  Or more specifically, maybe the merger will create a direct competitor to Element 3D?  Or maybe the goal is to expand C4D Lite's capabilities as an Adobe plugin rather than C4D as a 3D application?


    My point is this: we all thinking that if MAXON acquire's it, it will be integrated in C4D.    That may not always be the right assumption.  This acquisition could have absolutely nothing to do with C4D (don't they already have enough on their plate?) and have everything to do with benefiting Red Giant.


    When I look at it this way, things start to make sense.


    Again....just a thought.



  5. Hmmm...So MAXON (a 3D company) buys a major plugin vendor for Adobe products (essentially a 2D company).  This is odd and I don't see what it gains both companies. 


    Now, Red Giant has a annual subscription model of everything for $600 ($50/month).  I really don't see their products being part of the MAXON C4D subscription package for the current price - but my hope is that it is part of MAXON moving in the Creative Cloud direction.  Hey....if $60/month got me C4D, Red Giant and Redshift, then that is starting to be attractive.  But if it just adds another $50 to their subscription program (like Redshift did), then that is a far cry from Creative Clouds value.


    I hope we get more an announcement - other than "Hi.  We are merging with Red Giant.  Merry Christmas" - that goes into "why?".  It would be nice if someone could paint a vision of the synergies of these two companies and how they work together for the benefit of the user.  Just cause they all get along at trade shows and drink the same beer is not a compelling reason.



  6. On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 9:27 AM, hikarubr said:


    Also, it is not disrespectful to ask the reasoning behind someone's business model, specially when you are a client. 

    Challenge MAXON's business model?  I would never think of such a thing!  😇


    err...maybe not.


    While I did not pour through every post of this thread, I do think that a strong case can be made for both charging and not charging for an educational license - the key deciding factory being how long a "free" educational license remains active vs. a "reduced price" educational license.    Imagine these options:


    I think right now everyone can get a free 14 day trial license.  If you can prove your are a college student enrolled in a computer animation course  then the following two things happen:

    1. This free license extends to a one-time only period of 3 months (or about the length of an average college course)
    2. If you want to use the license for an additional 3 months, the cost increases to $75 and each additional 3 month block costs the same $75.  For each additional block, you need to revalidate that you are a) a college student and b) enrolled in a computer animation course. 

    The logic is this: The first 3 month block covers the introductory course. This should be free.  Get as many people to actually take a course in C4D.  Should they want to take more advanced courses, then they are charged about the same as a standard text book - which I think is fair and not a undue burden on the student.  I mean, are all text books free?  No.  So why should the software be free.  There is nothing that says MAXON needs to give the software away to every college student but they should at least make it easy/cheap/free for them to step into and consider using the software (thus the first 3 month block is free).  After that introduction, if they find that they have a real aptitude for the software and therefore desire to learn more, then they are more likely and willing to pay for it at that point.  Now, while I am not sure if any college campuses offer full degreed mutli-year program in C4D, this is still a huge 50% discount over the annual subscription program with all the same benefits (Cineversity, updates, etc).


    I would infer from Rick Barrett's post that MAXON is looking into something like this with their license server

  7. On 12/2/2019 at 7:44 PM, Cairyn said:

    Huh. I have worked with instable software, and it is a nightmare and a money sink. Stability and reliability are fairly important, and you can only achieve these with the right structural development method. Imagine you develop a character for animation, and when almost done, you find that under these specific circumstances sadly the jiggle deformer doesn't work at all (when all the documentation and all your previous tests told you it would). And you really need the jiggle deformer. And it's too deeply entrenched in the program's structure to be farmed out to another DCC app. So, you go back to your director and say... "Boss, we can't have Father Christmas' belly jiggling, the program doesn't do it". Uh. Not good.


    Yes...stability is important. No argument there, but my point was that history has shown that thinking that "stability" will preserve market share alone is not necessarily a wise choice.  By example I was pointing to Lucent which was a bellwether telecom company.  Lucent was slow to market on some products because they made sure that the product was stable as a rock and would last forever in the field.  They charged a premium for this stability.  Now telecommunications infrastructure has to be stable and redundant because if networks go down, commerce stops and (in the case of emergency services like fire and ambulance or hospitals) lives could be put at risk.  So it should be a no brainer that you pay that premium for stability and you wait longer than most for new features and capabilities to insure that you always get a stable product.


    Well, that did not happen in the big telecom run-up of the 1990's.  Being first to market with the new shiny feature won the day and today Lucent no longer exists.


    So when I said "stability is important but this is just DCC software after all" I was inferring that lives will not be lost and financial markets will not shut down should you lose your work on an animation...but they will when your entire network crashes or is hacked.  Telecommunication network providers get quite angry in those situations and threaten all sorts of nasty things like law suits, full page ads in the Wall Street Journal blasting your product, etc.  But still, they tossed the need for buying stable telecommunication gear and software out the window in rush to keep their networks competitive in the dot-com run-up of the 1990's.


    So while we all love MAXON's passion for stability, in the face of all the other things we don't like such as subscriptions and waiting forever for features, MAXON should not ignore Blender that doesn't have as strong a reputation for stability but is winning on a number of other issues like cost and features . 


    Stability alone did not save Lucent...and my hope is that MAXON recognizes  that stability is not going keep people dedicated to C4D in the face of something as universally distasteful as subscriptions (or conversely massive price increases on perpetual licenses).

  8. The improvements to the Outliner is a big one for me.  It is amazing the number of features that Blender puts into a 0.1 release after a 3 month period.  By comparison, this number of features is what MAXON would call a full point release after a year of development.  Is the the difference that MAXON has stronger quality controls and extended testing whereas Blender does not?   If true, you can hold onto that strategy as long as the market places a price premium on stability over new features.   They want both (why wouldn't they) but they also don't like waiting for new features. 


    There is strong evidence in other industries that access to new features is always more important.  Just look at the telecommunications market in the 1990's.  You had  a big bellwether global telecommunication equipment company, Lucent, that built products for 15 year life with a protracted product testing  phase to insure rock solid stability.  And for good reason: telecommunication products were critical to pretty much everything (banking, emergency services, business, etc).  Stability, not cost or features, was at the core of Lucent's product development culture.  Well, along comes a whole bunch of telecommunication start-ups during the 90's that were pumping out products with the philosophy of "be first to market with the new feature and let the customer debug it" and guess who won?  Well, Lucent, with a rich history of technological innovation in Bell Labs since 1954 (9 Nobel prize winners - one for the transistor) no longer exists.  After reporting a $2 Billion loss in the dot-com bust it merged with Alcatel in 2006 and then completely sold to Nokia in 2015.


    So MAXON clings to that same culture on stability that Lucent did when you consider their  pace of introducing new features.  Just look at the lackluster R21 release along with a price increase for perpetual licenses.  I think it is safe to say that  MAXON does charge a pretty hefty premium for that stability.  Hey, stability is important, but this is just DCC software - not something like telecommunications that forms the backbone of a modern society.  So if stability didn't win a long term strategy in the telecommunications market, then it probably won't support MAXON's strategy all that well in the future - especially in the face of competition like Blender.


    Is it fair to say that people were loyal to C4D prior to R21 for 3 things: 1) stability, 2) ease of use and 3) a firm belief that MAXON would never follow a subscription plan.  While I don't know what Blender's development road-map looks like, but I do find it interesting that 2.81 has some features that C4D users are interested in.  Based on the backlash to R21  and subscriptions, does Blender sense a shift away from loyalty to C4D and  adapted their development plan accordingly?    Not sure, but consider that Blender 2.8  was released at the same time as R21 and then 3 months later we have Blender 2.81  which makes it easier to use (in a very C4D way) while showing that they have both an aggressive development pace and are quick to correct stability issues.  Most importantly, it is free and requires no server activation.  Blender 2.81  directly addresses the  top 3 issues that kept people loyal to C4D.


    Coincidence?  Honestly, I don't know.  But I think it is a safe to say that Blender is a real, serious threat to whatever MAXON has as a long term market strategy.  Stability and feature growth at C4D's price point is not going to help MAXON weather the subscription back-lash over the long term...not when you have options like Blender.


    Honestly, given that MAXON pays attention to (but does not support) the Cafe, I would hope that threads like this  give them cause for concern.  Add to that a key instructor, Toby Pitman, saying " Sorry - I can't do subscriptions" in his Twitter feed and moving to Blender should also scratch at MAXON's "belief" that rolling out a subscription plan will "only" result in a short term drop in revenue and that they will make more money in the long term. 


    At the pace that Blender is moving, there may be no "long term" horizon that allows MAXON to recoup whatever losses they incur from moving to  a subscription plan. 


    That is a real possibility that MAXON cannot ignore.



  9. I would really be shocked if C4D came with a built in compositor given all the work put into C4D Lite for AE (which is a built in 3D app for your compositor) and the interoperability between AE and C4D.


    Now, given the work done on dynamic fields and OpenVDB implementation, I do see a move toward native fluid simulation.  X-Particles is the bomb (IMHO), but that doesn't mean C4D doesn't need its own solution.  In fact, the absence of such a tool set, particularly as Maya has fluids integrated quite well into its motion graphics tools, is quite a noticeable gap for MoGraph.


    I do like the idea of a C4D Marketplace.  The plugin/model/tutorial eco-system around C4D is both big and aging.  Aging is a criticism as some sites that were quite active have gone silent (KDZ, Coffestock, etc).  As each release of C4D tends to break all the plugins, some developers are starting to show exhaustion and simply giving up.   So  sorting through which tools are compliant to each release is rather cumbersome when dealing with multiple sites.  I know that R21 has its own thread on compliant plugins but I think that there would be a better way to manage this by MAXON as they should keep track of which developers are downloading the SDK for each release.  Simply send out a survey 3 months after the SDK has been downloaded inviting them to register their plugin at a C4D Marketplace run by MAXON.  Keep sending out that email at 1 month intervals until they do register it or until they opt out.  Ultimately, developers are not going to want the Marketplace showing their plugins as being compliant to only R15 so they are motivated to register their plugin to the latest version.


    One of the benefits of Blender is the Blender Marketplace.  MAXON should consider something similar.



  10. 5 hours ago, 3DKiwi said:

    If that happens these 62 pages containing some fairly robust discussion will seem fairly tame to what's coming.

    I hate to say it, but if C4D becomes part of  Adobe's Creative Cloud that is actually a better deal than what MAXON is giving us today.  Creative Cloud has more software options, cheaper price, true monthly billing plus cloud storage.  


    It is truly a sad day when you start to prefer Adobe over MAXON.    What has become of this world?  



  11. 21 hours ago, Cairyn said:

    The MSA does not follow the calendar year, that's BS.


    But there is a three month cancellation period, so if you bought the MSA in October (say, the 1st) then the cancellation notice from MAXON must have been arrived before July 1st to affect your contract. If you got the cancellation after that, then the automatic renewal will still affect you, and your MSA will only expire on the 30th of September 2020.


    Personally I wouldn't mind because the MSA comes with Cineversity and includes the R22 Perpetual for a much lower price than either the subscription or the (likely) upgrade price.


    I thought all MSA's ended on September 1st OR with R21.  That is, if your MSA expires after September 1st you will only get R21 and that is it.  I never heard that in any situation your MSA would allow you to get R22.   But what you are saying is that people with an existing MSA which expired after September 1st will get R21 under that old MSA and by renewing their MSA one last time will get R22 at the $720 price.


    Wow....if that is true, then for those whose MSA expired before September 1st have just one more reason to feel mistreated by MAXON as they only get MSA pricing for R21 while everyone else gets it for R21 and R22.


    That just can't be true, but then again nothing surprises me anymore about the new MAXON.


    EDIT: I just read the well-written and very clear explanation from Cairyn and now understand that there are circumstances for some on the auto-renew plan who have an MSA expiring after 9/1/2019 to renew and get R22.    So as I understand it, for mostly everyone (especially those in the US who do not have the auto-renew plan),  that ANY MSA expiring after 9/1/2019 would NOT be able to be renewed.  But for those on automatic renewal, the contract stipulates that cancellation must occur 3 months before the renewal date.   Now this creates a window of opportunity because MAXON would have had to inform auto-renewal MSA participants in June that their auto-renewal is canceled if they wanted to follow the same rules for everyone else with MSA's ending on 9/1/2019.  This would have raised questions prior to the roll-out of the subscription policy on R21 which MAXON may have wanted to avoid.  So they kept quiet and accepted the fact that people with auto-renewal date BEFORE (9/1/2019 plus 3 months) December 1st would be able to get both R21 and R22 at MSA pricing.  I am pretty sure that for everyone else with auto-renewal dates after 12/1/2019 got their cancellation notices on 9/1/2019.


    Okay...so is there anything that MAXON is doing that makes ALL customers feel like they are being treated fairly?  This whole transition is complex, confusing, legally entangled, and therefore poorly communicated because the implications of the transition are not well understood by anyone.  However you want to coach it, it still feels the same: It does not put the customer first. 



  12. 1 hour ago, srek said:

    #1 is a bookkeeping nightmare, possible, but a huge load of work hat needs quite a long time to prepare. Personally i hope we can offer this at some point, but i wouldn’t hold my breath.

    Probably no more work than setting up the whole licensing maintenance system and I view this a critical to subscription adoption rates and therefore critical to MAXON - without it, all previous work to realize this new business model is not a successful.  So MAXON better start thinking differently and stop hiding behind accounting rules to do what needs to be done for your own future success.   If it is EU laws that hamper  you, there are work-a-rounds (create BV entities in other countries and manage the billing from there, etc).   


    Geeze....I thought you people were innovative!  You made MoGraph after all!!!!


    Your competitors do it so why can't you?  Plus, you already have worked out the massively complex labyrinth off accounting rules when you offered the $89 per month license plan.  So what is the barrier to applying those same accounting practices to the $60/month plan billed annually?    Do you mean to tell me that if someone decided to do the $89 monthly plan for 12 consecutive months it would bring MAXON's financial infrastructure crashing down upon you?  I don't think so.


    Not quite following you on the logic of that argument.  It is imperative to your success...so you better do it.



  13. On 9/17/2019 at 5:03 PM, Frokito said:

    If someone skips couple versions and the upgrade cost remains around 1000 EUR, then I have no problems with the perpetual model. 

    What you suggested is the modo model ( all perpetual license upgrades are the same cost regardless of your past version).   Not sure how this benefits MAXON but I do agree that it would be a great thing to have.  But then again so wouldn't indie licenses, or bringing back the MSA.  Unfortunately, while great for us, they are not great for MAXON and I really don't think there will be any movement on this as everything being done today is really about benefiting MAXON.    


    The only thing that will move the needle in this discussion is to propose "win-win" scenarios.  I use the term "win-win" because they have to satisfy both MAXON and  the user.  I recognize that MAXON needs to make money, change their revenue model to make shareholders happy, etc.  But what saddens me is that it all just can't be about them to be sustainable.  So some things to consider:


    1. True monthly billing for subscription licenses.  This has already been discussed.  Other companies do it, not sure why MAXON cannot do it.  No word from MAXON either on this as well.
    2. Rent to own model.  Convert you subscription license to a perpetual license.  Right now, the conversion is only from perpetual to subscription and again for the reasons discussed before in that MAXON wants you to be on subscription models going forward.  What would be interesting is the option to  convert past subscription licenses to perpetual licenses at a substantially discounted rate.    The issue with subscription licenses for most is "I don't like the possibility of losing access to my files when I stop subscribing".    So imagine this:  You are an R21 subscription license holder.   MAXON is now releasing R22 and for extra $XXX, you can get R21 perpetual license at the time R22 is released.   The cost would need to be much LESS than the difference between the R21 perpetual and subscription licenses at the time R21 was released because you are not dealing with the current version which is now R22 (which in this example would be $950 - $720 or $230).   This is a win-win to me.  It removes the user's concern about losing access and therefore makes subscriptions much more acceptable to users (thereby increasing subscription adoption rates which is a huge plus for MAXON).  It also has the added benefit of another revenue stream for MAXON over their subscription plan while STILL preserving their current subscription user base.  You could also say that this offer IS ONLY available to users who 1) were subscription license holders for R21 AND 2) sign up for an R22 subscription as well (thereby keeping people on the subscription program).

    If both 1 and 2 were adopted then I would be extremely happy.  Imagine now being able to use C4D for $60 a month - PAID MONTHLY - and then, for say an additional $150 a year, convert that past subscription licenses to a perpetual license when the next version is released.  MAXON get's both subscription users AND additional revenue.  I get to hold onto my perpetual licenses but don't have to fork over $950 every September to do so.   True that MAXON could stick to their guns and say "but we want $950 rather than (12 x $60 + $150)  $870 dollars for perpetual license upgrade".   But then again, you also want a re-occurring revenue stream more than you want perpetual licenses.  In fact, your whole perpetual license cost is designed to motivate us towards a subscription plan.  Subscriptions and the re-occurring revenue that goes with it is what you want more than anything else. 


    Adopting both 1 and 2 as suggested above motivates me better to jump on subscriptions than a high perpetual license upgrade cost.  It still allows me access to my files should I decide to drop out of the subscription, which is a big fear to me and others as well.  But when you only have to pay $60 a month (paid monthly) and an additional $150 a year (paid annually) to keep my perpetual license, I am  extremely motivated to stick with the subscription plan.   If it motivates others as well, please speak up.


    Now that is true win-win scenario and I would love to hear Mr. McGarvan's thoughts on this proposal.  In fact, does this proposal have a significant downside to anyone?




  14. 8 hours ago, hobbyist said:


    Thanks @Jops. Yes this is at the heart of it. Subscription is the main show on the road now, literally.

    If MAXON saw value in the perpetual then it would be priced fairly from day one. 

    So far, someone from MAXON will gladly chime in to explain some aspect of the subscription plan.  They will also chime in to defend the position that Prime MSA holders can get a Studio R21 license via their last MSA purchase for about 1/3 of what Studio users have to pay ($250 vs. $720).  Their defense though again gravitates towards subscriptions: "that is why Studio users can get two years of subscriptions for a 20% discount".  But what took literally a ton of emails to sort out was that if you should ever take that offer in the future, they will deactivate your perpetual licenses - in essence locking you into subscriptions.  They were very shady in divulging that information and it took some robust dialogue and painfully direct questions to get them to finally answer it.


    Now, where MAXON is COMPLETELY silent is defending why we should accept a 50% increase in renewing their annual perpetual license over what they paid for via the MSA program.  Not one word of explanation or spin as to how this is in our best interests.  Maybe they can say "well we canceled the MSA program" and that is the price of an upgrade without the MSA program.  So we really didn't raise prices, we just cancelled  a program.  


    But then defend this:  WHY DID YOU CANCEL THE MSA PROGRAM? 


    Well, there is no defense.  The MSA program was cancelled because they want people dependent on paying annual subscriptions for the simple reason that a companies "appearance" of value increases with a re-occurring revenue stream.   It is a great selling point during quarterly earnings reports to say that subscription revenue growth is increasing  and makes up a large portion of their total revenue.  So in Nemetsheck's and MAXON's eyes, their thinking is "hey, we will make the annual cost of a subscription the same as the old MSA price so users will eagerly switch over of a subscription model.  While it won't increase revenue (this year), changing the source of that revenue to re-occurring revenue is a great message to our shareholders."


    So again, the benefit is all MAXON and there is no way anyone from MAXON can defend this position on a community forum in any way that users will accept.  Shareholders love it, but we don't because it provides us no value -- so why defend it.   They tried to put lipstick on this pig by selling it as "3D for the whole world".  No.  It is "higher stock price for Nemetschek" and don't ever forget that.


    Again, the only thing they will listen to is a drop in revenue beyond what they forecasted.   Right now, we are all exercising our last MSA purchases.  The true test will come with what we do with R22.  Do we convert to subscription?  Do we pay the higher perpetual costs?  Do we go somewhere else?  That is why R22 will be a critical for both MAXON and for us as well.


    And don't think for a second that subscription prices will remain the same over time.  Trust me, once they have coerced a large portion of their user base to subscriptions, those prices will rise.  Maybe not in huge jumps, but they will steadily go up.  And now you are really stuck.  There are no alternatives but to pay at that point.  


    While I love the fact that we have this great participation from Mr. McGarvan in this discussion, our complaints will make no difference and will generate no discussion from MAXON.


    Sitting on our wallets is the only voice we have.



  15. 3 hours ago, Adrien said:

    I really hope another company will emerge soon. The Ableton of 3D. Like SideFx or Pixologic in their respective fields.


    Its called Blender 2.8 --- again, not as smooth as C4D but just as capable (even more so in some areas) and very production proven with some good investing from game companies, etc.   So it has a strong future and a passionate user community.  Plus if you have used Cycles 4D, then you already know how to texture in Blender but if not, there are  also some very good free tutorials on pretty much every aspect of the program (Blender Guru is rising to be my favorite instructor).



  16. 850 Euro comes to around $938 USD....which is slightly better than the $999 USD that was the cost of upgrading by one version in the past should you not have an active MSA.


    Soo.......instead of a 54% price increase from the $650 MSA price it is only a 44% price increase.


    Not much movement there.  Folks, the only way to get price movement is to NOT jump on R22 no matter how awesome it is and you have until right before R23 is announced to sit on your wallet....though I have no idea when that will be.   


    Again, the real test of how successful this whole new pricing plan will be is when R22 is announced as I am sure the majority of R21 licenses were through the final days of the MSA program.   


    MAXON needs to make payroll and needs the revenue from new releases but we don't need to buy the perpetual license as soon as  they are released - if at all (don't forget Blender!  It is still out there!).    Nemetshek may give them a grace period  for a downturn in sales during this transition in MAXON's business model so they will be watching R21 subscription performance and R22 perpetual license performance with great interest.  But regardless of the grace period for soft sales,  no company likes to lose money so if sales are worse than projections then changes will be made.


    Time is on our side so lets use it.



  17. 2 hours ago, Cairyn said:

    But lo! don't despair fellow wayfarers, because surely MAXON will see the light and announce a fair price for the perpetual upgrades - which will certainly be the cost of the corresponding timeframe's subscription, won't it? - and also add a voucher for one year of Cineversity. Then, only the grumpiest users will keep complaining (because of the price increase of 20% on top of the 10% from last year, but who's counting?), and celebrations will happen all over the lands.

    That would be a very happy day for me if they just rolled the MSA cost as a perpetual upgrade cost and gave us the same benefits.  But when you read the FAQ, there is not much there to indicate that hope:



    If you own a perpetual license of Cinema 4D, you’re eligible for discounted Cinema 4D subscription pricing. You’re also able to upgrade to an R21 perpetual license. Some future Cinema 4D upgrades may be available only to subscription customers, while others may be available as perpetual licenses at upgrade pricing. Specific timing and pricing of each upgrade is not yet defined.

    Doesn't the last 2 sentences indicate that there will be some variability from release to release on upgrade pricing?  The use of the word "each" in the last sentence leaves that question completely open.  I would have felt better if they had said "our upgrade pricing policy has yet to be defined".


    So, well I tend to think the worst now (eg. upgrade costs on perpetual licenses go up each year), I would also like to think that MAXON is going to base their pricing decisions on future subscriptions and future perpetual upgrade costs on current R21 sales.  Our complaints and hopes will not sway anyone's thinking so what happens in the future will only be determined by sales.  I personally think it will be $999 simply because that was the upgrade cost if you did not have an active MSA.  So considering the MSA program is gone, then that is the only option left.


    But remember, with the loss of the MSA program also means that the time fence for upgrading is gone too.  You will save no money by upgrading as soon as R22 becomes available.  If you really don't like the officially announced perpetual upgrade cost, then wait.  Maybe when MAXON is not getting the revenue they need from R22, they will have a sale.  So wait for the sale.  What have you got to lose.



  18. On 9/6/2019 at 1:27 PM, Igor said:

    I don't know how I feel about the keyboard but animation looks like it's made within Cinema 4D. 😁

    I have the MX mouse and keyboard.....very handy when you are dealing with multiple machines at your desk.  I have a work PC, graphics workstation and an "every day" cheap PC and I manage all 3 with the MX set-up.  All wireless and it switches automatically between machines if they are supporting different monitors (just tell the mouse that if you scroll all the way to the left, then switch control over to the machine that supports the monitor on the left).  Also, the mouse has internal memory built into it (up to 500 Mb).  Just right click on a file, copy it, and then switch over to the other machine and left click - paste and that file makes its way over to the other machine.  The only problem I have noticed is that if you are copying and pasting files on the same machine, then you may have to do it twice as it the first click puts into the mouses memory and a second copy is required to put it into the machines memory.


    Overall, very handy if you are supporting multiple machines at your desk -- though I will admit that I am in a rather unique situation with 3 machines and two monitors that support all 3 machines.  The cable management alone would drive you mad so it was worth the cost of the MX (they are pricey) for solving that issue alone for the keyboard and mouse.



  19. On 9/6/2019 at 10:56 AM, Jops said:


    Many years ago the MSA was forced on us. Well of surely there always was a perpetual license, but it was quite a bit more expensive. MAXON told us that they needed a steady stream of income to be able to develop longer term features and under the hood developments. People where unhappy, because they had to pay before they knew the features of the release they where paying for. Many sad „MAXON will not need to work hard and develop new features, because it already has our money“ MAXON said „we are under more pressure then before, because we have to deliver on expectations“. That sounds familiar right?


    And that is what happened:

    MSA is not good enough any more, Team render gets limited and the only chance to plan our expenditure for the next years and to be save to be part of development is to subscribe, as we don't get any real official information about perpetual future („we intend to publish, but we don't know a price“) .

    MAXON tries to persuade us to give away our R21 perpetual license (that was worth some 3000€, before subscription) for 20% subscription costs for two years (I don't have the numbers, but I think it is less then 400€ ?!)


    So all this is quite Adobish.


    MAXON invested heavily in the development of the new licensing and activation.

    It's not as if the program has no weaknesses otherwise. Somehow it seems to me that preparations are being made all the time to start the developement of the features that users really want in a future that is getting further and further away.

    Was it really the most important thing now to change the help system? Wasn't there anything else that needed development time more urgently?


    people get the impression, that they paid their MSA for many years to finance the development of the new core and now, that you can see the first results of it (Timeline) that they have to switch to subscription if they want to profit.


    Best regards



    Well, I just have to chime in here as your post echoes a number of themes I have expressed since the day R21 was announced (though I would imagine that no offer for a beer will ever come out of it).  I think it is now apparent to most users now that MAXON's new business model gives more advantage to MAXON than it does to the users.  Most marketing people will tell you that is not a winning strategy over the long term and I would imagine that Nemetshek has signed off on some sales decline in the short term when they agreed to these changes.   For MAXON's long term health, I understand that they need to draw more revenue to keep their current development efforts going as they have a long way to go to catch up to the competition.  It is a tough road to create cutting edge features in the stable, easy to use manner that we have all come to expect from MAXON's developers.  So I respect their need to generate more cash from operations.  I was even okay with the MSA price increase from $650 to $725 - that is the benefit of putting out a quality product after all - but to incur a 53% prices increase from $650 to $999 while at the same time handing out R21 Studio to Prime holders for $250 is an indefensible, terrible move from the perspective of every long term Studio licenses holder.  IMHO: That is just going too far and MAXON has over-reached.


    So with the understand that MAXON needs to increase revenue, I have proposed in previous posts win-win scenarios by which we all benefit.  While I will never know what is being discussed, I remain hopeful that they have at least been heard because I honestly want MAXON to make money, be successful and continue on their current trajectory. 


    But I find that recent changes in MAXON's business model are putting that trajectory at risk for the simple reason that the most important thing to MAXON's operations is to make payroll.  They have been doing a lot of hiring and those salaries need to be covered regardless of how many licenses they sell.  There is always a risk to a companies operations when you change your licensing model:  So the big question is will that new model generate enough sales to keep operations going let alone generate a profit. 


    Now, MAXON was an extremely profitable company in the old model and I am confident that they developed sales projections over the next 3 years (probably based on the Adobe model) before they embarked on this new subscription plan.  But those are just "projections"  which is another term for "educated guess".  They really don't know. 


    So there is risk


    ...and that risk will not become fully apparent until R22 is released.  Here is why:


    It all has to do with how much of MAXON's business is made up of hobbyists or single seat professional users.  While every user cares about cost, these are the users who are most concerned about new license costs and the benefits they are receiving.


    The genius of the MSA program is that it motivated everyone to renew every year.  If you did not, you incurred that 53% prices increase (from $650 to $999) because if it lapsed, you had to pay the full upgrade cost.  That program has now been removed.  From now on, if you want a perpetual license, you pay that cost.  But removing the MSA program also removes the deadlines for renewing.   There is no reason why I should rush out and give MAXON $999 when R22 is released.  In essence I have up until R23 is announced to purchase an R22 upgrade.  So there goes potential for any predictable revenue stream.


    Also, subscriptions do offer freedom to the user as well, especially the hobbyist who is not dependent on C4D for income.  Maybe you realize that you are NOT using C4D 12 months out of the year.  Well...then don't sign up for the yearly subscription plan.  Look at what features you need that are only available in the current release and sign up for the monthly subscription rate to use those features.  FBX output is amazing these days and provides an important bridge back to previous versions.  I tested it from R20 back to R19 and it works quite well.  You could use the latest version for 7 months at the $95 monthly rate (did they raise that price?) and still save money over the annual $720 subscription rate.  I am sure that most projects can be completed in 7 months or less.  Even if you are committed to the $720 annual subscription plan, there is no penalty for waiting to renew.  You can look at the features  of R22 and make a decision to jump in again ONLY when you see the need for a feature in R22 that you think you will be using on a regular basis.  Again, there is nothing that forces you to sign up as soon as R22 is released.  


    So what all this means is that MAXON's revenue stream went from a very predictable model (they new when everyone's MSA's were expiring) to something COMPLETELY UNPREDICTABLE.  That is why they are pushing for the monthly subscription plan billed ANNUALLY.  They want their money up front as that insures that they can make payroll for the coming year.  R21 was released for the majority of us under the old MSA rules and pricing, so that is why I say that this unpredictability will not become fully apparent until R22 is released.  That is first release fully under these new rules for everyone.


    Well...as users we should all commit to NOT PLAYING BY THOSE RULES as long as MAXON continues to act in their own self interests more than ours.  Hey...you folks changed the rules so don't be mad at me for playing by them in a way you don't like.


    There are also some threats that MAXON has in front of them as well over the next year:

    1. Will all Prime MSA holders that were comfortable with their $250 MSA costs be happy with a $720 annual subscription cost or a $999 perpetual license cost?  Again, for the hobbyist or single seat professional user, this could be a big hit to their budget.  Will they still opt in next year remains to be seen.
    2. Will lackluster releases in future years drive people, no longer bound by the MSA deadlines, to renew an annual plan for that new release?  Imagine if there was no MSA pricing for R21 nor an MSA deadline to renew to get R21.  Would you immediately run out and get it?  Probably not.  Instead, you might want to sit back and see what MAXON does to encourage sales as waiting is all to your advantage.   So the luxury of a predictable revenue stream provided by the MSA program while MAXON continues to roll out the new core at their pace is gone.  If an attractive feature set is not there that warrants the current price, people will wait to see if a better price becomes available.
    3. Blender 2.8 removed the interface barriers for a number of us.  It is now looking like a more acceptable mainstream program.  I will admit, it is a little clunky.  Using it sometimes feels like you are driving a dump truck compared to the smooth Ferrari feel you get from using C4D...but then again, it is free and it will still get you where you want to be quite well.  Plus, Blender usability  will only get better and when it does it will still be free.
    4. Blender is now capturing mind share.  Hobbyists happy with Prime in the past may move to Blender.  People new to 3D will probably try Blender first and realize that it is a good alternative to what you have to pay for with C4D.  So the subscription growth MAXON was hoping for ("wow!  Studio for only $60 a month"), may not materialize.
    5. If Blender ever get's a MoGraph module or any of C4D's major plugin developers (Insydium, 3D Quakers, Jawset, etc) ever start to port their programs over to Blender in response to a shift from C4D to Blender among users, then that just makes moving to Blender that much easier.

    So all I see is risk and this new subscription model is not a slam dunk win for MAXON. It is all about preserving revenue over this transition and MAXON needs to think more about the user if they want to preserve that revenue and survive that transition.


    Should you ever be in Boston (say during your tour) and want to hear more....let me know.  I will buy the beer...in fact, I might even throw in some food to boot.




  20. 17 hours ago, adamfilip said:

    I am really happy to see the CEO of MAXON in the forum and I really hope negative comments and personal attacks dont stop Dave from visiting and reading the forum.

    I have been using C4D for 12 years with a MSA. I was always hoping MAXON would switch to a subscription model. Im really glad they did.. And personally i dont care about owning a license.. im always online. I always want the latest update and release and never go back to an old version once the new one is released. I also purchased redshift 5 months ago and Im super please MAXON purchased redshift. I am also a long time adobe user and subscriber.. its great. much better then the old system of buying multiple various levels of a license. subscription is so much easier and also easier for my boss to approve $50/-$80 month. versus thousands up front. I did wish R21 had more new features, but I still like what was released.Keep up the Good work Dave, Stick around

    Ummm…..pay for it yourself and you might just feel differently....and your boss must be paying the "per month" plan. because all other plans are billed annually.  Have you even told him about the $720/year plan because if you are using it more than 8 months a year then you are costing your poor boss to pay more.

  21. On 9/3/2019 at 11:58 AM, MRalph said:


    I'm one of the Product Managers here at MAXON, and the one who managed the new deployment system's creation, so I felt I should reply.

    The whole Cinema4D experience is moving into the modern online world. Online connectivity is something people assume nowadays. Having the help online greatly increases our flexibility and speed of deployment, especially for the numerous languages we support. It’s the modern agile approach and we are embracing it.

    We’ve had a few isolated requests to have the Help made available in an offline form and we’ll investigate now the R21 is out.

    I'm sorry you feel this release is below par, that's certainly not how we view it, nor how I testers have felt.

    Kind Regards,



    Okay...If I have said it once, I have said it a thousand times: PLEASE STEP OUT OF YOUR ECHO CHAMBER and stop listening to yourselves.


    Start listening to your customers.  Never consider an action that benefits MAXON unless it ALSO benefits your customers and be darn sure that you have asked a good cross  section of  your customers if that action really is a benefit.


    The whole thread just shows how out-of-touch MAXON is becoming with the real world as you embrace the "modern on-line world". 


    It also shows the massive shift of corporate culture going on within MAXON.  There is a very obvious theme throughout all of your actions of putting MAXON's interests ahead of your customers.   


    That is a losing strategy. 


    We all see it and my hope is that you step out of your own echo chamber long enough to see it for yourselves.



  22. 3 hours ago, ingvarai said:

    Hi Dave and thank you for this!
    Yes, it is a tough year, 2019, indeed. I have been on the MSA program for several years now. And now these two "surprises". First, this license jumble. Then a new repainted C4D version with new enamel and almost the same stuff under the hood.
    When it comes to my case, can you please confirm this:


    Since I have been on the MSA program for several years, C4D Studio, I can sit down now, relax, and do nothing until the nex major C4D release. I have a license that is valid for R21, forever.
    At the next crossroad, when MAXON releases a major version, I can then chose between a subscription model, or purchase an upgrade (much money once), the good old fashion way.
    There is no point in me doing anything now for, perhaps, 11-12 months.


    Is my perception of this right?
    I am the lucky one, in this license jumble, since I am an MSA oldtimer?
    When it comes to Blender, I am sure it is a viable option. For me, I have no time nor energy to learn another tool. But most important, I am a C++ programmer so I have developed several plug-ins for C4D for character animation. I am dependent on them when I do animations. (They perhaps will be marketed on day..).
    As it is now, I will purchase Redshift, my first 3rd party renderer. I made a test, and with two Gainward RTX 2070 GPUs, things render ridiculously fast, and very nice, regardless of added fog, depth of field, Global Illumination etc.
    Again, thank you for taking your time to give me such a comprehensive reply!


    When does your current MSA expire?  If it is in 11 months,  then you are correct in that you don't need to do anything for at LEAST the next 11 months.  Should MAXON release R22 prior to your current (and last) MSA expiring, then I "think" under current MSA terms that you would also get R22. Now if R22 is not released until AFTER your current (and last) MSA expires, then AGAIN you do not need to take any action until R22 is released.  In fact, you could decide NOT to upgrade to R22 up to 1 day BEFORE R23 is announced (should you magically know when that day is).   The MSA program locked us into renewing at a fixed interval. But with it gone, we are no longer locked into the schedule...it is just a license upgrade as far as MAXON is concerned now.


    This probably explains another reason why they are pushing for subscriptions....they want a predictable and reoccurring revenue stream.  MAXON had that with the MSA program...not so much with the new perpetual license program - we can give upgrade money to MAXON for R21 today but then do nothing for R22 up until right before R23 is announced.  That is a two year window (on average) in which no money is flowing into MAXON.  If everyone did that, MAXON would have to suck it up because they still need to make payroll.


    So the revenue gets a little lumpy and unpredictable.  Software companies don't like that...thus the hard push for subscriptions and the punitive $279 cost increase for a perpetual license upgrade over the past MSA program.  That's just not how to treat customers.  You don't punish us with higher costs  because you made a change to your pricing model that that creates a bit of financial uncertainty in your cash flow.   That's like flipping the middle finger to the firefighters while you are hanging on with one hand to the burning building.


    So when R22 is released....just wait.  Don't do anything for 6 or 9 months.  Trust me, the sales team will start a campaign before then.



  23. 7 minutes ago, hobbyist said:


    62 pages 😬 It's still there.

    It was pretty confusing what the options where and took a while for it to be understood. You summed the options up though.


    Thank you....not sure where the whole Sticky threads moved too.  I am probably still getting used to Cafe 2.0 (which I do like better).


    Relative to this subject of what MAXON's new options mean to all users, may I suggest this rather snarky post found here


    Yea...I admit it is snarky and paints MAXON in a bad light.  But there is some truth to it and MAXON needs to be willing to take the heat for their actions.  My hope is that they listen to it, internalize it, and then do something about it.



  24. 3 hours ago, ingvarai said:

    Does anyone here understand the new MAXON licensing system?
    1. What does 14 days remaining mean? What if I start C4D after 15 days?

    2. Has MAXON uttered anything regarding upgrades? Will we still be able to purchase regular upgrades? I have bought all C4D versions since and including R13. I will never subscribe to software. When Adobe started this subscription policy, I jumped the Adobe ship and took CS6 with me, which I had paid for. Have paid for and used Adobe products since 1994. 

    3. Having been on the MSA program, for several years now, I own my R21. So any subscription before September next year is not relevant. If I understand this correct. Do I?

    4. But I want to start using Redshift, immediately. Does anyone know if MAXON has a special offer on Redshift, which applies to faithful customers like me? Or do I have to go to Redshift and cough up the $500 and get me a license there?



    There was a whole 60 page thread on this (which seems to have been removed from the Cafe site) and it took quite a bit of discussion to sort this all out as the data was not forthcoming in a very straightforward manner (IMHO).  That could have been just a pure communication issue given the number of options.  But in a nutshell, here is what you are facing:


    If you have an ACTIVE MSA today, then you will get R21 perpetual.  Pure and simple.  August 31st, 2019 was the last date in which MSA's were being renewed.  Once the MSA expires then you have the following options for R22 and beyond:


    Option 1 (Studio MSA Holders ONLY):  Go with the subscription plan for two years at a 20% discount.  Note that if you take this discount, then the R21 perpetual license you have will stop working.  That is the trade-off for taking the 20% discount.


    Option 2 (everyone):  Go with the subscription plan (NO discount).  You pay $720 USD all at once AND your R21 perpetual license will remain active.  Should you stop paying the subscription price, then all versions of C4D after R21 will cease working.


    Option 3: Purchase a perpetual license.  The cost of the perpetual license is exactly the same as it was for C4D Studio users who let their MSA lapse but want to upgrade to the next version....or $999.  Think of it as life without an MSA program...which it is because MSA programs were discontinued on August 31st, 2019. 


    Another way to think of this is that MAXON just figured how to enact a 53% price increase on Studio users in the last 2 years (from $650 to $999) if you want to stay with perpetual licenses and pretty much a  massive annual price increase for every other non-Studio user else regardless of what option you pick.  Yeah,...people were mad...which probably explains the 60 page thread that started as soon as this whole plan was announced at Siggraph  and its eventual removal from Cafe web-site.  


    So what does this mean to you (other than higher cost with less freedom)?  Well, that is something that you need to decide.  Honestly, R21 is such a lack-luster release that I get more excited over Blender 2.8.  As I learn more about it, I keep getting more impressed with Blender.  I just purchased close to 70 hours of Blender training at Udemy for $27. 


    As far as the new features in R21 goes,  It feels like MAXON's  development resources went into license management rather than C4D development.  Yeah....not a good year for C4D users at all.




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