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Posts posted by 3D-Pangel

  1. So a couple of things that I wonder about as we try to navigate these very messy waters:


    1. MAXON made a major change to their whole pricing model and absolutely messed up the communications on it.  Didn't they try their pitch on a test audience of select users ahead of time, collect the questions, listen to the concerns, and adjust?  That is just good marketing when making a change of this significance.   Or did they just persist by living in their own echo chamber, refusing to take outside input and challenge to their own views on their new business model.   
    2. Building on Point 1, if the new culture of the new MAXON is to NOT adjust based on market response, then business history has shown they will have a short life span. Companies bigger than them have gone under very fast by refusing to listen to their customers and/or see the macro shifts going on around them (eg. Kodak, Lucent, etc).  
    3. Blender 2.8 is a macro shift in the market that MAXON needs to pay attention to.  Big companies like Ubisoft, etc. are making huge donations to the Blender Foundation.  If the MAXON leadership team is feeling secure about the strength and purity of their new core or that they won a technical Oscar award, then they are again living in their own echo chamber.  Core means nothing to the user unless they can see it in the features.  Feeling proud that some modeling features are now under the influence of the new core?  Well don't expect the user to do back flips over faster extrudes.  What they really want is Bodypaint being updated to this century.  Step out of your echo chamber because that thunder you hear behind you is Blender coming up fast. It may not be pretty by your standards, but it has a building momentum in the race while you are slowing down.
    4. There is some evidence that the heat generated over the absolutely mis-guided release of their new subscription model is changing some of their thinking.  For example they are re-thinking Cineversity for perpetual license holders.  I mean that alone is proof that they were not listening to anyone but themselves prior to the R21 announcement.   Other proof is that the new features in  R21 have very little to drive people to stay with C4D.  If they were listening to the users, they would have made a decision to delay announcing subscriptions until a future release provided must have features like massive object handling, gpu rendering, full multi-threaded implementation across all aspects of the program, and a Bodypaint release that elevated it to best of breed status.  
    5. So what became of the world tour announced at Siggraph?  Didn't they talk about a 27 city tour?  I have not heard anything about that since.  Could it be that they were once again living in their own echo chamber thinking that the world would reach out to them with loving arms over the subscription plan?  That they would be greeted as heroes wherever they went?  Did our anger temper their hubris a bit?  Good.

    So MAXON, please step out of your echo chamber.  Start listening...and more importantly prove that you are listening.  Even your defense of the new subscription model proves that you are still living in your own echo chamber because those arguments are all about how much better this is for MAXON: "It was really hard to maintain MSA licenses for 5 versions of C4D".....oh boo hoo for you.


    Kodak, Polaroid, Lucent....give a big warm welcome to MAXON.





  2. 3 hours ago, everfresh said:

    this is a tricky question, at least in my view... while it does make sense to make plugins sub based if the majority of c4d licenses will be sub soon, in some cases that can get quite expensive, even if a single plugin would be just 5 or 10 $ monthly. i have a bunch of plugins i like to keep around for everyday use, have them at hand in case i need them. there's the bigger ones like XP or redshift (which wouldn't just be 5 or 10 bucks a month), but also smaller ones i like to have available all the time. so the 60€/month c4d sub could easily pile up to 150 €/month including just the most essential plugins. what i would like to see here is basically the same i'd like to see with the c4d sub model: make it rent-to-own. in that case after a while i would only have to pay if i need an update to make it work again with a new c4d release or if i want the new features of that plugin. and if i'm fine with the current capabilities of that plugin and it works with the new c4d release i can just continue to use that version.

    Subscriptions will change the plugin market.  We have already seen it happen with C4DS's plugins who decided that keeping up with the changes to C4D's core is no longer worth it to him.   But it was the constant changes to the core that was the final tipping point for him to move on.  We need to remember that at some point, changes to the core drop off once it is fully implemented.


    But relative to subscriptions, I would imagine that the hobbyist on the subscription plan will not be paying $999 for Realflow.  That type of investment warrants a longer term commitment to C4D and is a bit incongruous to the thinking of anyone who chooses the subscription plan.  But then again, most hobbyists probably would NOT be willing to pay $999 for Realflow even under the perpetual license plan...that is a lot of money for a hobbyist.


    But, if Realflow offered a per month subscription plan to use Realflow that was actually BILLED monthly for say $40, then some hobbyists might be enticed to try it, especially if that plugin had a demo version to learn on prior to actually paying the subscription fee.  


    So there could be a market for subscription plugins that did not exist before.  If MAXON was smart, they would lease out their license servers to plugin developers to actually make this option available to them as the skill/cost of developing a license management program is probably out-of-scope for some of the smaller plugin developers.  Similar to how C4D has an SDK, their license server should have an SDK as well.   If plugin developers used the MAXON license server, everything would be tied together neatly via the MyMaxon portal. 


    Speaking generally (and there will always be exceptions), not everyone uses every one of their plugins every day.  So this scheme makes sense in a subscription world.  Just pay for what you need when you need it.





  3. 10 hours ago, hikarubr said:


    The difference is that Cinema4D NEEDS plugins to do stuff that Maya does out of the box. Particles? You need X-Particles. Fire? TurbulanceFD. Fluids? Realflow. Proper UVs? Seamilar II. GPU Render? Octane or Redshift.


    But Maya does all of that out of the box, no plugins needed. So, yeah, it is more important for Cinema 4D to not break plugins than for Maya.


    So doesn’t Blender do all this without plugins....for $0 per month or (if you don’t like subscriptions) or for $0 for the perpetual license.  And you can either pay $0 a month or the slightly higher fee of $0 annually for the perpetual license as well.  Unfortunately, the perpetual license needs to connect to the license server 0 times every 14 days to stay active.


    You just gotta love 0!



  4. 13 hours ago, HiFly said:

    Hi Rick


    As a new user, who just invested £3,700 in R20 Studio; Cineversity access is not my main concern. I've looked at it, it's a nice extra, but for me, it's a non-issue compared to the more significant conversation. To me, the MSA was a right to upgrade my software at a reduced price each year.


    I phoned MAXON this week who said if there is a perpetual upgrade path to R22 it will be more expensive than the subscription. 


    In my opinion, what needs sorting is perpetual licences.


    Especially a commitment to the fact that perpetual licence holders should be able to continue upgrading their licences at the same price, or less than a subscription.


    Yeah.  If we assume that the cost to upgrade from R21 perpetual to R22 perpetual is $999, then that is a 53% price increase in two years.  $280 increase to get R22 over what I would pay this year to get R21....but only because I still have an active MSA program. 


    Now...if Prime users opt for the perpetual option at $250 this year, then they are also signing up to pay 4 times more than what they used to pay via their Prime MSA program for the R22 perpetual upgrade.  Now that is a big jump.


    So the user base for C4D users are going to boil down to three classes of people:


    1) People who are not afraid of being locked into subscriptions if they want to have access to their files.  They've accepted it, don't fear it and are pretty much confident that paying $720 in perpetuity is just a fine way to go until they decide to leave C4D or 3D forever.

    2) People who love C4D more than they hate subscriptions and agree to the outrageous price increases for perpetual licenses.

    3) People who have just lost all faith in MAXON and that anger over this "new" MAXON forces them to go somewhere else.


    So which group do you think MAXON is placing existing C4D users in?


    Which group do you think MAXON is placing new users in?


    ...and most importantly (as I really don't care what MAXON perceives at this point)….


    ….Which group do you think will make up the majority of C4D users in 3 years?



  5. 15 hours ago, Icecaveman said:


    Smooth talking BS. You seriously gonna shovel that? The Reality: Your team thought through the entire plan with your consultants well in advance. The initiative was finely calibrated to pressure customers towards subscriptions.


    We customers should feel grateful that our previous investment in the product funded the stiff consultancy fees for agencies such as this: http://www.thebigwheelconsultancy.com/


    Analytics, Customer psychology...it's a true art form these days. Give them their due, these consultants are CLEVER. The game now is customer manipulation over product improvement.



    Stop sweet talking it...tell us how you really think!


    Wow...interesting site.  I love how they list their benefits as: "proven ways to grow your subscriber numbers, membership base or customer lifetime value"


    So it is an "or" condition?  You can't grow your subscriber numbers AND maximize customer lifetime value?


    I guess not.  Well, we can guess which option MAXON selected.



  6. On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 8:57 AM, arail said:

    I'm glad 3D-Pangel and RBarret got this cleared up. It was the one question that bothered me.

    But I think this forum and the CGTalk forum (and any others) should have a banner at the top that says: LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP - YOU LOSE YOUR PERPETUAL LICENSE IF YOU ACCEPT THE DISCOUNT  TO CONVERT TO SUBSCRIPTION 

    I can't imagine anyone would consider the cost savings from the discount balances out against no longer having a perpetual license. 

    Glad to know that my confusion was not unique.


    I originally thought that the 20% discount was a nod to the Studio users having to pay more over what everyone else is getting at a lower price should they renew their MSA.  In other words: an incentive for Studio users only to push them towards subscription.   Everyone else's incentive is that they get Studio for a lower cost.


    But that incentive comes at a price: you loose whatever perpetual licenses you have....so in reality it is now more of a dis-incentive than an incentive.  That fact was never made clear until you really pushed for it to be answered directly.  Everyone having that "ah-ha" moment with the answer only confirms that.


    Therefore, if moving everyone to a subscription is MAXON's ultimate goal (as all companies love the prospect of reoccurring revenue every year), then  the ONLY lever left to them is to significantly raise the cost of upgrading your existing perpetual license to the latest version in future years (eg. R21 perpetual to R22 perpetual).


    At $999, that is already a 53% increase in two years over the $650 MSA price.


    I think we can take increases in the cost of perpetual license upgrades as a hard fact at this point.  How do I justify this conclusion?  Easy.  Look at the two hardest pieces of information to get out of the MAXON team:


    1) What happens to my perpetual license should I take the subscription?

    2) What is the cost of upgrading a perpetual license.


    The answer to both of these questions reveal schemes that are to MAXON's advantage and not those of the Studio owner who values their perpetual licenses.


    ...and they wonder why the trust is lost.


    I hope I am wrong and am willing to give them 1 year to prove me wrong.



  7. 3 hours ago, RBarrett said:


    I've answered that and many other questions directly. Honestly a big part of the problem is we've got multiple threads (including this new one) going on multiple forums, and I can't even find the answers I know I've posted anymore because there's over 1000 posts spread out all over the internet.


    If Little Johnny has a perpetual R21 and later signs up for the 12 month subscription plan, he'll see two licenses in his MyMaxon account - an R21 perpetual license with 'unlimited' as the end date and a subscription entitlement with a specific end date. Both licenses can be used - so effectively two machines can be activated at the same time. When the subscription ends, the R21 perpetual will still be there.


    If Little Johnny has an active MSA and takes advantage of the discounted 2-year offer to convert to subscription, his perpetual license will no longer appear in his MyMaxon account. He'll be able to use Cinema 4D for as long as he maintains his subscription. If at some point the subscription ends, he'll lose access to Cinema 4D. The perpetual won't be restored.


    I've asked, and the updated EULA is supposed to go up on the website soon.


    - Rick







    Thank you...so it is conversion from perpetual to subscription via the 20% discount that kills perpetual.    That is where my confusion lies. 


    So if I purchase an R21 perpetual this year, then I should NOT take advantage of the 20% discount for two years next year if I want to keep my perpetual license alive.   Correct?


    If I decide in one year to follow the subscription plan, then I sign up for a subscription for R22 (do NOT take the discount) and I will have two licenses in the MyAccount system:


    1) one for R21 perpetual

    2) one for R22 subscription.


    So is it correct to assume that only taking the discount to convert from perpetual to subscription that puts perpetual at risk of deactivation.  Are there any other risks to perpetual that I need to be aware of (short on you not offering them anymore).


    Thanks again,


  8. On 8/10/2019 at 5:27 AM, marco bezoet de bie said:

    There is something strange about the subscription and perpetual model. I have been informed by my local MAXON agent, that ones you choose the subscription model, you loose your perpetual license (i believe from R21 onwards). I am doubting this information as does my local MAXON agent and they and i myself contacted MAXON directly to clarify this. Hopefully next week i will here more on this. So it looks like a choice between perpetual (and going to pay for upgrades) or subscription. If i renew my MSA (for the last time before the end of august) i get R21 perpetual, but when i move to subscription (in august 2020) i wil loose my perpetual R21 license. That doesn't seem right. Perpetual does mean it never expires (for that particular version). I hope to hear more on this form MAXON.

    I have asked for this before and I ask for it again...


    We need to see the R21 Perpetual EULA (end-user license agreement) to fully understand our rights prior to making any purchase.  That is the legally binding document that defines exactly what we are buying.


    I also have asked my MAXON rep about what exactly is "perpetual" and can "perpetual" ever be PERMANENTLY  taken away should I decide to switch to a subscription for a short period of time.  No clear answer or they answer part of the question such as "Yes....while you are using the subscription your perpetual license will not work".    They never discuss what happens after the subscription ends.


    BUT LET'S BE CLEAR:  What I am asking is will my "perpetual license" be re-activated should I decide to no longer renew my subscription.


    Again....still more clear in the hopes that there is NO way a MAXON representative can answer the wrong question:  Consider the following situation:


    Year 2020:  Little Johnny has purchased or upgraded to an R21 perpetual license.

    Year 2021: Little Johnny signs up for the 12 month subscription plan to use R22 via the subscription plan for the 2021 year but decides NOT to continue his subscription in 2022.

    Year 2022: Little Johnny has NO SUBSCRIPTION PLAN and no access to R22.


    And now the big question:  Will Little Johnny still be able to use his R21 perpetual license in 2022 under these circumstances?


    Not sure why this is such a tough question to answer but along with everything else that is going on, it is the inability to answer direct questions like these with equal directness that is killing our trust in the company...


    ...well...actually....that trust died 3 nano seconds after Dave McGarver started talking at Siggraph.  Actually avoiding this question is taking the trust that was already killed, throwing it into an oil drum, setting it on fire, and pushing it off a cliff into a hydraulic car crusher.


    Something like that...but you get the point.


    So can someone from MAXON please answer the question directly. 


    ...and when you do....


    Please leave out the lengthy preamble about how arduous it was for MAXON employees to manage all those licenses, or how the EU laws prohibit MAXON from not only understanding direct questions but reading them alone without the presence of their lawyers, or how so much better licensing is for everybody, especially MAXON's accounting team.


    ...oh...and get us a copy of the EULA...I have access to some lawyers too...they live for this type of stuff and tell me that marketing something called "perpetual" has a very narrow legal definition.



    Thanks and have a nice day,



  9. 24 minutes ago, RBarrett said:

    As far as the question as to why MSA is being discontinued - I think it honestly comes down to trying to simplify things. It would be confusing I think for both us and users to have two different types of subscription, and it would be really difficult to manage the accounting side for both. A real focus of this effort was to simplify the product & pricing options, because we recognized how much confusion they were causing. That's why we've eliminated the editions and why we're only presenting 5 options on the website (one of which is Perpetual - I feel I have to keep reminding folks).

    So we are 52 pages into this thread.  Feeling simple and less confusing yet?


    Not sure why you just couldn't make everything really simple and just have the MSA and subscriptions and both be priced the same. 


    Benefits of MSA - you get to own the software and it NEVER shuts off (no license manager).  But essentially it is the same MSA program we have always had.  If you leave it, the costs to upgrade can be significant.  If this worked for 5 products, then keeping it for just one product is certainly a step towards simplification.

    Benefits of subscription: Essentially pay for only as long as you need it per the monthly or yearly plan and you get updates faster (MSA owners have to wait until the next MSA period to get an update).  Fail to keep the subscription updated and the license manager shuts you down.  Want to switch to MSA, you pay the upgrade costs just as before and no different than what MSA owners pay.


    What really get's people upset is the license manager for "perpetual licenses".  Do you really own something that can be shut off remotely?  If you don't think that is a problem for some people, give me your RFID codes for your remote car starter. 


    The tripping point isn't subscription vs perpetual.  The tripping point is having a license manager for perpetual.  If that goes, you will preserve you user base.






  10. 21 minutes ago, Icecaveman said:

    And the three men I admire most, the Father, Son…and the Holy Ghost…they took the last train to the coast…the day…the music died.




    Yep....they were forced out by Nemetshek (the true villain here).  It is highly unlikely that three people all decide that retiring at the same time is in each of their own mutual best interests. 


    They knew what was coming and I am sure packed as much as they could  into R20 as one final gift to their loyal customers.  Very glad that they went out on a high note...saw C4D win an Oscar, etc.


    My heart goes out to them though....because I honestly feel that for them to witness all the anger in the community will be like watching the home you built with your bare hands be over run by rats.



  11. I also fear that more of the larger plugin developers may come to the same conclusion. 


    Again, I expect the biggest churn in the user base to be in the single license PRIME user or single person NEW user.    Yes. They will be paying more but they are no longer locked into using C4D.  Their overall initial investment is very low and therefore easier to walk away from especially if there are no penalties for letting your subscription lapse for months or years.  And as stated before, they may not like the idea of having to pay $470 more per year over their MSA for an annual subscription . This would be especially true if they are not using all the additional features that Studio gives them.


    Also, if I was a new user, I would NOT sign up for the annual subscription.  Not sure if a 14 day trial is enough time for a new user to feel comfortable enough with the program  to commit to something that you ONLY get to use for a year.  In the past, if you did make a commitment to C4D, you at least had it forever and it was easier to commit to the cost of Prime than the cost for Studio.  But not anymore.  If I was a new user, I would step in for maybe a month and see how it goes.  Some will stay, others will not.


    So, if the make-up of the C4D user base switches from old-timers like us to NEW or Prime users who just stick a toe in the water for a few months or a year, then those people are not going to be spending big money on plugins. Not sure how much of the user base this represents, but I would imagine the vendors of the higher cost plugins (Insydium, 3D Quakers, C4DPlugin, Paul Everett) may be looking at their user base to determine what part of it is made up of hobbyists.   


    Either way, new user or subscriber, would you buy a plugin for software that you don't own and only rent?  That's why the subscription model has to expand to include some of the major plugins as well and be part of the same package at the same price.  Then things get interesting. 


    But if not, and we lose our plugin developers, then I think the only people to keep C4D will ultimately be those making a living wage from it.  The rest of us will go to Blender.


    My hope is that the plugin developers view this as  an opportunity to seize a new market in the Blender community and look to the ex-C4D users in that community as a built-in word-of-mouth advertising.  Either that or they make every upgrade backward compatible to R20...which will get old over time.






  12. While confusion still reigns supreme over pretty much everything (...and this was supposed to be a simplification over having Prime, Visualize, Broadcast and Studio???  Yea..right).


    While everything other than subscriptions is still uncertain, then you have to think about all the possible ways people could use subscriptions to their advantage and not Maxons:


    • Only go monthly...never perpetual and never buy 12 months all at once.  Honestly, for the cost of the monthly price ($82.99) you could keep R20 (that can never be turned off) and use the latest version for up to ($59.99x12)/$81.99 = 8 months a year and save money.   8 months is a long time.
    • Really start to think about exactly WHAT you need from the latest version and how long you will need it.  If you can get away with ONLY a month or two of the new features, then you are way ahead of the game.   This is especially true for NON STUDIO users.  You will be spending more for a subscription than you did in the past.  Having Studio is nice, but are you really going to use all those new features 12 months of the year?  So be very selective over what you need from the later versions.   Can you learn the new features, use them in a new project and take it to final render in less than 8 months needs to be a final consideration.
    • When you finish a project, convert it to FBX so that you can still use some of it in R20.  I have been playing around with C4D FBX import and export and it works quite well - especially when it is export by C4D and imported by C4D.   Textures and textures channels are preserved quite well whereas FBX import from other programs do require more work to import into C4D. That may be a good strategy to get around losing your work but still benefiting from the new features. Future advancements to mograph, animation, rigging, and texturing will not be able to be saved from later versions in an FBX file in a non-destructive manner.   Things will need to be baked or cached prior to FBX export. 
    • Stay on this plan for a period of time could save you enough money that in the future you could purchase a completely new perpetual license.  But that could easily take up to 5+ years for you to hit a break-even-point and by then they may no longer be offering perpetual licenses.

    This is some of my thinking on how to AVOID giving MAXON as much money as possible.  I used to be loyal and even when some of the releases were not up to par, I still paid my MSA because I knew that in time MAXON would treat its loyal customers well with some really impressive features as they did in R20.  But in more ways than one, that ended with R20.  MAXON has forced me to think the way their new management is thinking:  It is now all about the money.  Loyalty has nothing to do with it.


    That's why I am so keen on what happens with R21 perpetual.  I do feel that will be the last perpetual license and it puts me that much further ahead IF R21 LICENSE STAYS ACTIVATED AFTER A MONTHLY SUBSCRIPTION ENDS and I approaching using C4D as mentioned above.


    But I fear that because they have this monthly only option, using it selectively is probably why they will not allow perpetual licenses to re-activate once a monthly subscription ends.


    At which point, I go to Blender.  If only Insydium ported XP to Blender....life would again be perfect.






  13. This topic is purely for Studio owners ONLY.  We are the ones feeling the pain the most as we pay the most and get the least benefit in this new subscription program.  You want to make a MAXON representative dance and sputter: call them up and ask them to explain why everyone else pays less then what you pay for an R21  perpetual license.  They do their best, they hate the discussion and my heart goes out to them but that is the situation their management has put them in (let's not forget that).


    Okay...back to the topic.


    If you are like me, the whole discussion on MAXON's new subscription program is giving me a headache.  But that happens after 40 pages of posts...and I am pretty confident that not everyone fully understands every conceivable permutation of license management that can exist for everyone.  Honestly, sometimes it feel like trying to absorb a new set of government tax codes.


    But in all that confusion, the general consensus remains the same:  MAXON is forcing you to subscriptions.  Regardless of what they say about perpetual licenses, we all still have that perception.


    ...and nobody likes to be forced to do anything.  


    So I thought I would open up a topic from a different angle: What would make you love subscriptions as a Studio owner?  I ask because honestly, I think MAXON is going to take it the shorts on this whole plan.  They most likely have spoken to Adobe and got level set on the plan that Year 1 they lose money, Year 2 they break even and Year 3 onward they are in fat city.


    But Adobe has more products than MAXON.  For the same money, Creative Cloud gives you a whole suite of products whereas MAXON only gives you C4D (remember that Redshift is extra).  I am not sure how much of their user base is made up of single seat Studio owners (be they professional or hobbyist), but I would imagine it is not trivial. 


    So what happens when that large based on Prime, Visualize and Broadcast single seat license owners jump into Studio, pay the $720 a year and realize ..... hey....I was kind of happy with my $250 MSA because there are a lot of features in Studio that I just DO NOT USE.  Now I am paying $720 a year (and all at once mind you) and I am not using all those new features. 


    Honestly, if you were that good with C4D such that you consumed EVERY feature of Prime, Visualize or Broadcast, you would be using 

    Studio now anyway.  That is what happens when your skill starts to be limited by the tool...you get a new tool.


    But if your skill is NOT progressing with the lower platform versions, especially as a hobbyist, then you probably are not going to be using all the features of C4D Studio on a regular basis as well.  You will default to what you know and using the program that way (it is human nature).  Ultimately, you will realize that all that has changed is that you  are paying more now per year for the same benefit.....and so you stop the subscription.  


    Now, Adobe could weather that transition because if people aren't getting as much from After Effects as they hoped, they could jump to Photoshop, or Illustrator.  There are 20 apps that you can choose from so pretty confident that they could find something that fits with what they want to do.  Plus they offer cloud storage too!  And they bill monthly!  


    Imagine now if MAXON had acquired Allegorithmic rather than Adobe.  Imagine if MAXON's "creative cloud" included C4D, Redshift, Substance Painter, Substance Designer, etc.  Imagine if you had access to Substance Store as well? All for the same cost?  Imagine if over time MAXON started to acquire Insydium, 3D Quakers, GSG.  Imagine if for one cost (billed monthly) you got a good portion of what is today the C4D eco-system of plugin developers, model makers, and tutorial developers.


    You might feel differently about selling your soul to MAXON.  But alas, they do not have a creative cloud.  By comparison to Adobe, they barely have a Creative Raindrop.


    Of course, if Insydium ever ported X-Particles to Blender,  I would not stick around long enough to see what happens.  After all, no one likes  to be forced to do anything.


    So what would make you love MAXON's Subscription program?





  14. 1 hour ago, Rectro said:

    Yes you can keep your r21 if its perpetual as long as you dont convert that licence to a discounted subscription.   This would mean if you want a subscription your pay the full subscription price either annually or monthly while your perpetual falls further and further behind.


    What you need to keep in mind however is you may get used to or rely on the new features of r22 or higher, so simply reverting back to r21 would mean you loose them features, and any work that made use of them new r22 features.  



    Is that true?   Take one step into subscription and ALL your perpetual licenses close forever? Can we get some clarity here?


    Maybe I inferred this incorrectly, but I thought it worked this way:


    1) As long as you are using a subscription, the perpetual license will no longer activate.

    2) Once you cancelled your subscription (or the subscription period ends), the perpetual license will reactivate.


    This was my impression as I remember asking MAXON USA that if I needed Redshift or some feature of R22, then I could sign up for a monthly subscription until I no longer needed those features (which in reality means that you took the project all the way to final render).  Then, when my subscription lapses, R21 will reactivate again.


    So what is the reality?





  15. It all comes down to how much you value perpetual licenses over subscription licenses.  Getting R21 perpetual using the old system has value to me and delays the decision on subscriptions for one more year.  I just feel I am that much further ahead than NOT doing anything, holding onto R20 and being faced with a much higher perpetual upgrade cost to R21 or jumping into subscriptions.


    One year gives me a chance to see exactly how much value MAXON adds to the subscription program in a year.  How significant are the mid-year updates?  Also, when the time for a new release comes out, do they hold to current perpetual upgrade costs or do they go higher?  Both of these will play heavily into my decision to either go with subscription, go with perpetual or leave C4D all together.   


    One year gives me time to see how this all plays out in reality because you are not going to get any guidance from MAXON on how pricing and features will change in the future probably because MAXON really doesn't know either.  Remember, this is all new to them as well.   The money lost or gained by this move to subscriptions is all forecasted by MAXON and sometimes forecasts can be dead wrong.  One year of reality could set a completely different direction for them.


    I am doing nothing different by taking this offer than if MAXON never announced a subscription plan....so lets see what happens in one years time.



  16. All,


    Initial Disclaimer: If some of this information is repetitive, then I apologize but I gave up following this thread 10 pages ago.


    I just wanted to communicate some information which I received from MAXON USA.  Steve Ridley actually contacted me by phone to discuss my upgrade options as my MSA expires on August 30.  This date is significant as a lot of options change on September 1st.   People like me whose MSA expires on August 30th are in kind of a grey zone relative to what price we pay for upgrading to R21 perpetual.  That is a question I kept asking on the forums.  Steve also informed me that there are probably many others in the same boat because MAXON was always very gracious to those who missed their MSA renewal dates in the past and MAXON would allow them to renew late but there renewals would then be timed to end on August 30th of the following year.  So hopefully this information is of comfort to many others as it was to me.


    So rather than try to interpret for Mr. Ridley, I asked that he put it into writing so that I could communicate it to the forums as I explained that there was a great deal of confusion (as attested to probably the longest thread in Café history):


    Here is a screen shot of the email he sent.  I then asked a follow up question which I will show below this one:





    Note that the discussion point is around the option to RENEW AN EXISTING MSA (see highlighted sections) prior to August 31st.  That means for $720 (my existing MSA price for Studio), I get both R21 perpetual and Cineversity just as it has always been.


    I did ask a follow up question, which then got this response:





    So it appears that it is business as usual and the decision on what to do with the subscription plan does not need to be made until 8/31/2020.  Should MAXON come out with a cracker jack release in the interim, the only way I could get that update prior to buying a perpetual license on 8/31/2020 is to convert to a subscription plan.


    For people in the same boat as myself in the US (I cannot speak for other regions), please contact MAXON USA to hear it for yourselves via a 1:1 dialogue. Talking to Steve convinced me on what to do more so than reading this forum....but such is information flow in the digital age.


    Now I cannot guarantee this clears up everyone's confusion, but it worked for me.




  17. 22 hours ago, RBarrett said:


    Look at it from the other side - in fact the other side has posted here several times - those folks are used to certain annual price and they wouldn't see it as fair to have their price increase all of the sudden. 


    Wow....so after 15 years of loyally paying my higher Studio MSA costs, I am supposed to drop my concerns about being treated unfairly because the Prime users are getting a big break.


    I guess that pretty much sums up MAXON's general disdain for Studio users.  Thank you MAXON.  Glad we know what you really think.


    The right thing to do is to charge the lower cost that Prime people have to pay to EVERYONE!  That would immediately maintain that loyalty and really make us believers in your "3D for the whole world" direction.  But no.  That is not how you are proceeding.  You are kicking Studio users to the curb.


    So let me ask the MAXON community (not you Rick) this: 


    Given that Studio users are being treated unfairly today....what makes you think that subscription users won't be treated unfairly tomorrow?  Can you trust anything that MAXON has to say once they lock you and your work into their subscription model?

    • Can you trust that they will be releasing updates at more regular intervals?
    • Can you trust that Cineversity will still be free?
    • Can you trust that Cineversity plugins will still be free?
    • Can you trust that subscription prices will not rise.  I mean just look at where Studio upgrade prices have gone in the last two years:  $650 for R18, $725 for R20 and now $999 for R21
    • Can you trust anything that comes from a MAXON employee as a counter argument to these concerns?  Actions always speak louder than words and MAXON's pricing actions are speaking pretty loud right now.

    Trust is a precious thing and how Studio users are being treated should serve as a warning to everyone about what the new corporate culture really is at MAXON.  I don't even think Adobe started out this bad, this blatant.  



    In US Dollars, the upgrade from Studio R20 Perpetual to Studio R21 Perpetual is $999. I have provided that several times (not sure if it was here - too many forums), but do keep in mind that (a) anyone with an active MSA in September will receive R21 perpetual - so most of you under MSA don't need to worry about the upgrade price, and (b) this price is not necessarily indicative of future upgrade pricing.


    So I thought that $999 was  the R21 upgrade price if you were NOT under an MSA prior to September 1st?  My hope was that for those like me whose MSA expires on August 31st, that the upgrade price to R21 perpetual would be less.  But I guess it would not be less but actually more than the $725 cost I paid last year for an R20 perpetual license.  Therefore, my assumption is that the $999 cost for a perpetual license is fixed from this point forward and my existing MSA does nothing to change that cost.


    So what is my incentive for doing anything prior August 31st when my current MSA expires? 


    And don't go into the 20% discount on subscriptions.  Sorry.....I still feel like I am being ripped off there when Prime users get the same thing for less.  We've gone over that...your reasoning is absolutely flawed from where I sit and I don't think you could come up with any reason why Studio users should accept it, so let's leave that off the table.


    So....convince me (as well as others on the forum) as to why I should take any action prior to August 31st?


    Have a nice day.







  18. 9 hours ago, RBarrett said:

    Unfortunately it's difficult to be 'fair' to both camps. I think there's lots of benefit to all C4D users that we'll only have to worry about a single C4D edition from now on - there's certainly benefit to us from a product management and development perspective, and several third-party developers have told me they're really happy with the decision. But we didn't want to leave users of other editions completely out in the cold.





    Sorry Rick.  It is rather disingenuous to come onto the Café with the intent of opening up an honest dialogue with Studio owners and not directly answer my question.  My question is that Prime MSA owners get Studio features  for $250 whereas Studio MSA owners pay $725 for THE SAME PRODUCT.


    Glad to know the product managers and developers are having a good time (you realize though that your "benefits" of C4D owners ONLY having to worry about one version is really just so much political spin --- or rather "FAKE NEWS").  Please honestly address this concern.  I asked an honest question and would like to be treated accordingly.  To avoid these tough questions is not going to do much for toning down the hot rhetoric in this forum.


    Also, did I miss something regarding the upgrade price from Studio R20 perpetual to R21 perpetual in the USA?  I also asked that question as well and it was completely ignored or missed.   Again, this is NOT about the future pricing but the pricing as of today, right now. 


    Does anyone know?  If not, why is this such a hotly guarded secret?    And please do not throw up the smoke screen of EU laws or we are still working through all the choices for all users (I mean really, there are only 5 MSA licenses moving to one Studio perpetual license....how hard can that be).  Again, be direct....be honest. If you don't know, just tell us you are working on it and when you will have an answer.


    Again...this is the time to be real.  Not a good time for spin and hoping we go away.



  19. 2 hours ago, RBarrett said:


    As you noted several pages ago, we've been busy with Siggraph. Though not dealing with upset customers - quite the contrary. The customers we spoke with at the show (both existing customers and soon-to-be-customers) are very excited about the new options that are going to offer many more folks an opportunity to join the amazing Cinema 4D community. And despite the tone of some posts here, I do still believe this is the best community around any piece of software - so many folks willing to share their techniques and their time - including the 20+ presenters that you saw on C4DLive and many others who staffed demo stations in the MAXON, Redshift, Intel, AMD and Nvidia booths. So many partners have admired both the strength of our community and the excitement over our acquisition of Redshift and our new pricing, and they're eager to play a larger role in the C4D ecosystem. My week was largely spent with them and with customers.


    Amidst the Siggraph meetings, I've done my best to read through the various forums and other online communities and respond as much as possible (as have other MAXON team members). It hasn't been easy - often trying to parse pages and pages of comments on a phone and pecking out responses on a tiny keyboard. I'm sorry we haven't been able to be more present here and that there's been confusion. 


    I'm back home now, and I'll do my best to answer questions.




    There is one thing you need to unpack for me.


    The 20% discount for R21 is not that attractive.  What kills me is that Prime MSA owners get Studio for the cost of a Prime MSA.  That is certainly way more than a 20% discount over two years.  That is just not fair.    By my math, that is a $470 savings that Prime users get over Studio users.  Studio users only get a $288 savings.  So you are still $182 short to being fair.


    Honestly, you need to throw in Redshift for that two year period as well at the same price.  Yes...you need to go a little beyond what's fair to MAXON (advantage user) but then again it is our trust that you need to restore. 


    Or give ALL current MSA owners (from Prime to Studio) a one year subscription for $250 (the cost of a Prime MSA).  There...you want simple....now that is simple.  I will gladly  give you $250 just to see how this prescription things works out (eg. will you really be giving feature updates in that one year period?).


    Also, what is the cost for R20 Studio MSA owners to upgrade to an R21 perpetual license?  And please share how the EULA is being written regarding my rights to a perpetual license.  I would like to see specific wording that it will NEVER be shut off as I would imagine that the legal wording of "perpetual" is taken quite seriously in US courts.


    Time to get real.








  20. 2 minutes ago, 3DKiwi said:

    Dave, the reaction shouldn't have come as a surprise. There would have been some very robust discussion in the Beta Tester's forum that I was once part of.


    Do as I do and vote with your wallet.  I cancelled my daily newspaper from 1 August as the price had gone up again. I told them a year ago that next price increase I would be cancelling my subscription that I've had for many years. $3 a day for a newspaper is just too much. But I have just forked out US $399 for another's year's subscription / updates for Modo. I'm happy with the value for money I'm getting.

    So as  a past modo user (I still have a license from 401) , I think I can get back into the software for a reasonable cost.  But here are the challenges which I am sure you faced:


    1) How easy/hard is it to convert C4D files, textures and UV's to modo?  How well is FBX import?

    2)  The interface was always daunting.  Did they make the object manager any easier to use?  Any recommended modo tutorials for beginners akin to the little blue airplane one you did for C4D (that one is a classic)?

    3) Does modo have particle animation, fluid simulation?  X-Particles is just too addictive to walk away from and it gets so much more powerful with each release.  Anything close in the modo world? 

    4) I also love Forester (tree generation and animation).....anything close?  Does modo even have plugins?


    I have three choices and each will be voted on with my pocket book (but I must look at more than just the software)


    1. Stick with MAXON...tough to do when you are this angry....but the worst decisions tend to be the most emotional ones.
    2. Go with Blender.  R2.8 looks to have a better interface and the Blender eco-system of model/tutorial/plugin developers is pretty huge.  In fact, there are some modeling plugins I would love to have in C4D.  Plus Blender has fluids.
    3. Go with modo.  I need to evaluate if the Blender UI in R2.8 represents more of less of a challenge than the modo interface.  In the absence of all other information, if I can learn the modo interface faster than Blender's, then I would probably go with modo.

    Fun times ahead.




  21. 3 minutes ago, 3D-Pangel said:

    There is a lot of confusion out there about what happens next concerning perpetual licenses (both upgrade costs and activation)....and they have gone silent...probably because they have been told to keep silent until MAXON can develop a unified response that makes sense and is accepted by everyone.  Yes..the corporate mind that forced MAXON into a subscription model (and I use the word "forced" intentionally) probably did calculate that net profits would be up at the loss of a few Studio owners.  But in reality, no company EVER wants to lose customers.  So my hope is that our anger is being felt and they are trying to figure out what they can "afford" to give Studio owners  so that we stay as customers.  In this discussion, I am sure Redshift licensing is a big lever which they are trying to figure out  just how hard they need to pull to get us to stay.


    That is my hope stated less eloquently (I am on PTO today and wanted to try some creative writing with that post....it was fun to write....interesting that usually I use my free time for C4D....yes...the love is gone).




  22. 2 minutes ago, Icecaveman said:


    Dave, MAXON isn't going to change their minds on this. This is the whole Adobe-forced-subscription saga...another chapter.


    As for loss of trust and respect...yes total. As for a  puncturing of enthusiasm for the product, yup. It's gone.

    There is a lot of confusion out there about what happens next concerning perpetual licenses (both upgrade costs and activation)....and they have gone silent...probably because they have been told to keep silent until MAXON can develop a unified response that makes sense and is accepted by everyone.  Yes..the corporate mind that forced MAXON into a subscription model (and I use the word "forced" intentionally) probably did calculate that net profits would be up at the loss of a few Studio owners.  But in reality, no company EVER wants to lose customers.  So my hope is that our anger is being felt and they are trying to figure out what they can "afford" to give Studio owners  so that we stay as customers.  In this discussion, I am sure Redshift licensing is a big lever which they are trying to figure out  just how hard they need to pull to get us to stay.


    That is my hope stated less eloquently (I am on PTO today and wanted to try some creative writing with that post....it was fun to write).



  23. Interesting that for the last couple of pages in this thread, the major theme has been "so exactly what my options if I want to stay perpetual?" 


    Amidst all that confusion, there have been NO posts from any MAXON employee.  We have not even heard from those employee's who run the forum (Igor last posted over 140 messages ago).  Maybe they are waiting for us to pass through the "storming" phase of change and calm down and enter the "norming" or acceptance phase of change before they show themselves again.   After all, we have more in common with an angry mob this week than the once peaceful lovers of C4D we used to be last week.  Heck, if I were them, I would stay away.


    So....confusion reigns....tempers flare (including mine)....and MAXON is silent.  


    But maybe...just maybe....our reaction just took them by surprise. 


    They initially faced the angry mob and  tried to defend MAXON's position that subscriptions are great for "THE WHOLE WORLD" but the arguments kept coming - and when you do the math, they had nothing to defend themselves.   They drank the cool-aid that subscriptions  were just soooo game changing and soo amazing because it allowed everyone to get Studio.   Images of THE WHOLE WORLD using C4D Studio were just too exciting for them to ignore.  In that daze of 3D utopia that had been created at MAXON, they failed to realize that their existing customers, in particular their Studio customers, were NOT THE WHOLE WORLD.  We are the ones being cast aside, being asked to pay more than others to get the very same thing. 


    We were simply left behind.


    Never in their good-hearted imagination (and they do have good hearts) did it occur to them that to independent Studio owners, their entire proposal and rules on subscriptions and perpetual licenses makes them  - in fact - look like Adobe.  This has to be a shock to them because for years we kept asking "Will MAXON become like Adobe" and for years we heard the uniform cry in return "MAXON will never be like Adobe".  


    Well....they have become Adobe.  They didn't know it but they did....and it shocks them to their very core.


    "We were the good guys" they are saying to one another in surprise as the dream of "3D for the Whole world" starts to collapse on them for the money making sham it really is.  "How did we let this happen?" they ask in disbelief.


    They now realize that they have also lost something as well in this whole debacle.   Their passions and values for Cinema 4D were once lock step in-tune with those of their customers - making C4D the most fun, stable and easy to use DCC software out there.  But now our values are different.  We are no longer excited about C4D.   We could care less about C4D Live.   As we try to navigate the mis-information concerning our options for our perpetual licenses, we are in  reality  thinking more about leaving C4D than continuing the journey.   We just need all the facts before we make one final decision.


    That is what happens when trust is lost...what you once loved quickly becomes something you despise.  I would imagine that to hear that drum beat for 31 pages can be a little distressing to MAXON employees.


    So our good friends at MAXON, who once celebrated with us over R20 one year ago, have now gone silent.  Maybe...just maybe, this realization is also making them face some changes about what they once believed in.  Maybe...just maybe....they are doing some "storming" of their own.   


    So my sincere hope is this:  Their silence implies that our anger has been felt.  That it is being discussed.  That they are looking to management to guide them...and us...to an acceptable middle ground were we all benefit, where we are all comfortable with the licensing changes that MAXON has introduced. 


    That no one, especially the independent Studio owner and hobbyist who has poured so much time and money into this software, is left behind. 


    Maybe...just maybe...they are busily trying to develop a unified plan and message where we are all made whole again.


    Mabye....just maybe that is my hope.


    ...but hope is a bad strategy and we need to be real....


    ...and MAXON  needs to restore our trust.



  24. 1 hour ago, RonMedia said:

    What bothers me the most right now is I've been considering renewing my MSA this august to get R21 perpetual.  $720 for Studio owners like me (from my usual vendor). But when I think C4D Prime owner/licensees with $250 MSA will get the exact same (Studio like) R21 license for $470 less than me, that changes my perspective. Gonna need to give MAXON a call.



    That is true!  I never considered that.  Well....I was upset before and that realization did not help.


    Honestly, MAXON better have a UNIQUE AND SIGNIFICANT discount just for Studio owners.  Give me a $470 discount on a perpetual license of Redshift that I can load on R20 seems appropriate and I might think about doing something (subscription or perpetual) after my MSA runs out at the end of the month.


    Think about this recipe:

    • Push out a pretty mediocre release that makes even R17 look great.
    • Offer MSA holders of Prime the same perpetual license to R21 at 1/3 of the cost of what Studio owners have to pay.
    • End the MSA program  next year and charge MORE for a perpetual license than ever before.
    • Deactivate all perpetual licenses that you have paid for in the past should you decide that you can't afford to pay that premium anymore and go with a subscription.
    • Charge me just as much for a subscription that I used to pay for the MSA, but now I don't own the software. 


    Wow.  I know the good hearted MAXON people think this whole subscription program is great and that they are not Adobe, never will be Adobe and have a higher set of virtues than the corporate slime that runs Adobe.  Remember....they are for helping the whole world with 3D after all!!!


    And in part, that is true.  They are all great people who are passionate about what they do and my heart goes out to them because they just don't see it.  They are not looking at this from the standpoint of the user who has to pay for this with their own money. 


    If you walk through those 5 points above, they don't realize that MAXON just figured out how to steal everyone's perpetual license right out from under them.


    You may disagree and your arguments can be sound, but after all the words, that is just how it feels to me.  I can't escape it.



  25. 4 minutes ago, Craig Maret said:

    FYI, I just got off the phone to MAXON UK and they are sending me a pro forma to pay (usual price.is it £540+vat) to extend my msa which ends August 31st, this will get me r21  perpetual, I asked about how that licence stands if I choose in the future to go rental and she didn’t make it all that clear but did clarify that perpetual means perpetual. Probably going to pay that just for the character tools enhancement and then stop and learn all the stuff I don’t use rather than drooling over new stuff.


    Okay.  I think what we all need to do  is to wait until AFTER Siggraph to fully understand what the actual plan is for existing license holders.  I think the "brain" trust of this new licensing plan is probably at Siggraph and most likely under siege by users actually at the conference.  If the sentiment of people on CG Talk or on the Cafe is any indication, I would not want to be them having to actually face people.


    Given the amount of contradictory information going around from all the various MAXON offices, then this whole roll-out is poorly conceived and  executed.  I think they actually thought it would be accepted whole cloth and with loving arms by the C4D community, otherwise they would have thought it through a bit better....which indicates (maybe at its heart) that they might have the best of intentions and are as surprised at our reaction as we are by their proposal.


    So let's give MAXON some time....at least until after Siggraph.  Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and trust that MAXON will be ultimately still be MAXON when the dust settles and that all the indications of Adobe practices (like canceling perpetual license activation should you sign up for a subscription) is just so much mis-information....no matter how alarming it may be.









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